Why Men Won't Commit: Men's Atitudes About Sex, Dating and Marriage

National Marriage Project (Rutgers University) ^ | 2002 | Barbara Dafoe Whitehead and David Popenoe

[Z in Oregon]

At one time there was a huge price to be paid for divorce. It was a social taboo, highly frowned upon by all. A divorced man could expect to be considered flawed in some way, perhaps unstable or unreliable, by prospective employers; a divorced woman could expect to be ostracized by her community, shunned by her friends. No one contemplated divorce except in the most extreme cases of dissatisfaction or abuse. Needless to say, the divorce rate was very low in that environment. Over the past forty years or so, we have steadily reduced the price of divorce, to the point that there is little or no social stigma attached to it. We have also made divorces easier to get. In most states, "I don't like it here anymore" qualifies as grounds for divorce now. Well, not surprisingly, having reduced the price of something and increased its availability, we now have a lot more of it. This is totally independent of the particulars of any individual couple. We don't need to speculate on whether men or women, or both, are bigger jerks now than in the past, and we don't need to analyze this divorce or that one to understand the trend. Any time we reduce the price of anything, we get more of it. Now we have gone beyond that. Having reduced the price of divorce to a fraction of what it was, we have also installed financial incentives for women to divorce their husbands, and we have pretty much eliminated the possibility that they risk losing custody of their children. So women not only see a near-zero price for divorce, with virtually no risk of losing their children, they also see a way to get paid for doing it. All this was done with the of best intentions, but it has created a system where marriage-and-divorce becomes a kind of financial gain enterprise, through which women -- but only women -- can obtain cars, real estate, and cash income. We could describe this system to a Martian, and even the Martian could tell us that this system is going to produce a high divorce rate followed by increasing reluctance on the part of males to marry. We don't need to know anything about the particulars of the people involved. For some reason we believe that handing out speeding tickets, and fining people for going 65 in a 35, reduces the number of people who speed. But then we act surprised when fining men for getting married causes fewer of them to want to get married. In the case of marriage, we act like men are supposed to be stupid enough to not know there might be a cop over the hill, or that going 65 in a 35 is so much fun that they should do it anyway. Most men don't need to get a ticket themselves to understand the principle involved here. If you get married, and it turns out there's a lawyer on the other side of the hill, you get fined tens of thousands of dollars and your kids are taken away from you. Well, don't do it, then. It's a simple message that even men can comprehend. I don't understand why people seem bewildered by this, or seek to find character flaws in men to explain it. Men are reacting absolutely rationally to a system that not only punishes men severely, and at random, it even provides financial incentives to the women to initiate the process. The only sane response to such a system is to steer clear of it. I think it is an absolute travesty that we have set up such a thing. We have created a system that destroys the ability of young people to have what we used to call "a life." No young man today can reasonably contemplate marriage and a family without accepting the fact that his partner will be able to destroy his life at her whim, at any point in their travels, for any reason or for no reason at all. It is literally a crap shoot whether he will be able to live in the same house with his own children. Surely there are substantial rewards should it all pan out, but a reasonable person has to weigh the risk of it turning out badly -- apparently a 50-50 chance. The penalties are now so high for men, and the odds of encountering them so likely, that the potential rewards are no longer worth the candle for an increasing number of men. This is reality, and trying to point fingers at men or calling them names will not change things. They are behaving in a perfectly rational manner, responding to a system of incentives and penalties that virtually screams, "don't do this if you're a man."

Another astute post. Write a book...I'll buy 5 copies.

[Z in Oregon]

And does such work get a "thank you"?

No!

Very sad.

A little appreciation would go a long way...

[tacticalogic]

And does such work get a "thank you"?

No!

Very sad.

At best, we will get a "Well, fine!", which, as any married man will tell you, is neither well, nor fine.

[Z in Oregon]

Women should pay for dates, and go out of the way to make their beau feel special and valued, and buy him nice gifts, and expect nothing into return.

[Fred Hayek]

" modern woman's idea of Mr. Right is unemployed, alcoholic, addicted to cocaine, out on parole, married to someone else, that beats them up."

In that case I hide the engineering degree, decent job, bicycle racing, and then use the Neanderthal pickup line on women at the bars:

Yo, Bimbo!
I'm Mr. Sleaze!
I'm what you want!
I'm what you need!
We go to my place,
We do da wild thing,
Then after that
I slap you round some

It would probably work while wearing a Bill Clinton mask (scary thought).

Now I'm ready for freeper women to loose the flamethrower on me. Incoming!

[ValerieUSA]

We certainly could not be responding on this thread because we actually WANT to find a good woman to bring happiness and fulfilment in out lives.

Reassuring each other that women are untrustworthy and the system is rigged and men are victims is going to help you find the "good woman" you've already decided doesn't exist?
Good luck!

[sonserae]

Well, if you know these "perfectly nice guys" send them my way. I don't need their money...I have my own...but darned if I can find a nice guy. I end up in that vicious cycle of being the giver and them being the taker. Women get hosed too.

[Fred Hayek]

False accusations - In my case I got hit with that without the marraige part - got accused of being a key member of Aryan Nation by a woman I was dating five years ago. Turns out some bozo has a similar name, and is now in the Federal Pen for 30 years. Nearly cost me my professional career.

[ValerieUSA]

Try to understand. We DO want a wonderful partner and all the rest of it. We are simply attempting to explain all the negative potentials that exist on that path for us.

My point is that women also take a risk when they marry and bear children and stay home to raise them. Love and marriage and making families is a risky business for everyone. But to dwell on the negative potentials is not the way to find success in anything.

[SauronOfMordor]

But that's what it's come down to: luck. Nobody has the slightest idea how to predict in advance which women will wake up on their 32nd birthday and turn into Hell on wheels with a divorce lawyer.

In my dealings with divorced friends, the most dangerous time seems to be when the wife is in her early-to-mid 30's and the marriage is a few years old. She's had her husband long enough determine if he's really going anywhere, and she's still young enough to think she'll be able to trade-up to somebody better (With both my most-recently-divorced friends, she had acquired the new guy before initiating the divorce).

Her chances of getting a better husband change dramaticly when she reaches he late 40's.

[anniegetyourgun]

I thank God for you. It reminds me that there are "real men' out there. The truly satisfying future belongs to men (and women) like you who will not have a trail of broken relationships, strange children, financial hardship, and diseased bodies to deal with for decades to come. Continue to choose the better way.

[nightdriver]

"I don't understand why people seem bewildered by this, or seek to find character flaws in men to explain it. Men are reacting absolutely rationally to a system that not only punishes men severely, and at random, it even provides financial incentives to the women to initiate the process. The only sane response to such a system is to steer clear of it."

Well, you nailed it, ND. Kudos for the cogent post. I wish I had written it, because I can put a name and face to every situational nuance you mention.

[ctonious]

The penalties are now so high for men, and the odds of encountering them so likely, that the potential rewards are no longer worth the candle for an increasing number of men. This is reality, and trying to point fingers at men or calling them names will not change things. They are behaving in a perfectly rational manner, responding to a system of incentives and penalties that virtually screams, "don't do this if you're a man."

Nick, I don't think we've ever met on other threads (and hopefully never tangled), but I would be remiss in not giving major credit where due. Your calm and incisive reflections on the core problem cut through the fog of high emotion on both sides - such that many may see the rationality of what they do - and don't do.

I myself have pretty much abandoned the home field, instead visiting South America as much as possible, and have been considering moving down there.

But...I am fortunately on good terms with all...(pause).. most of my ex-girlfriends, and have had the chance to discuss these kinds of issues esoterically with one in particular ( an absolute Hellion during the relationship...trust me), who I almost married.

I've told her my opinions of what's happening with American women, and how the Latin American women are so different, so feminine, so non-combative. She though, like the shrewd woman that she is, said "What are you so pissed off about? You've never been married. And don't kid yourself about Latin American women. They'll be anything you want until you marry them. They're not stupid. Then you'll be spending the rest of your life getting her family into the US, and/or being Mr. Rich Uncle USA to solve all the problems of her extended family in her home country."

She's right. And that's where I am...at this moment. No solutions, no whining...but just pondering.

[ValerieUSA]

Swervie, you know I got married at 38.
And I got married at 37.

And I got married at 22, had four sons, and was widowed at 39. No regrets.

[Z in Oregon]

If so, why don't more women marry, and offer to work 90 hours a week so their husband can stay home and raise the couple's children?

[Z in Oregon]

What do you offer, and what do you expect?

[ValerieUSA]

Haven't you noticed? Men and women are actually different.... and you thought women were merely inferior.

[sonserae]

I can offer a lot and do...I don't expect anything that I can't offer myself. Men are born selfish...it's not in a man's nature to think outside of himself and his needs. It's in a woman's nature to take care and nurture and think of others besides themselves. Sometimes you finally realize that you have been giving and they have been taking the whole time. Suddenly you are exhausted physically and emotionally because you have been taking care of others and no one has taken care of you.

[sonserae]

By the way, you sound exactly like those selfish guys I've been talking about. Do you think outside of yourself and your needs? Didn't think so.

[Z in Oregon]

Sigh. Reason flies right by you, doesn't it...

The offer I mentioned would be accepted by millions of guys.