Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

New report says Twin Towers did not collapse because of structural flaws
AP | 10/22/02

Posted on 10/22/2002 12:13:03 AM PDT by kattracks

NEW YORK (AP) -- A new report commissioned by the leaseholder of the World Trade Center site has concluded that the twin towers did not collapse because of flaws in their structural design.

The study, reported Tuesday by The New York Times, said the damage caused by the planes, and the fires that broke out as a result, caused both buildings to fall during the terrorist attacks.

The report's analysis contradicts the findings of an earlier federal investigation, which said the World Trade Center's unconventional design contributed to their collapse. The federal study said the towers' weak floor supports gave way during the attacks, triggering a collapse of the entire building.

The Manhattan engineering firm that analyzed the collapse, Weidlinger Associates, used a computer program to recreate the terrorist attacks. The engineers found that the fires and the overwhelming heat that spread through the towers made the collapse inevitable, the Times said.

Larry Silverstein, the owner of the trade center property, paid for the study as part of his $4 billion insurance lawsuit.

Silverstein has argued that that two planes hit the twin towers in separate occurrences, entitling him to a $7 billion double payment. The insurance companies in the suit say he should be paid half that amount.

Copyright 2002 Associated Press. All rights reserved.


TOPICS: Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS:
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-42 next last
To: kattracks
Weidlinger Associates is a very respected engineering firm in NYC so I take their report as the truth. Of course Larry wants to get the big payola from in the insurance company, but there was never really any question that the building collapsed due to the fire damage. The engineering design which allowed for the buildings to resist the initial impacts and survive for an hour were unfortunatley vulnerable after an hour to fire. No surprise there. For example, 7 WTC was the first ever office building collapse to happen due to fire only. Fire is amazingly destructive.

In the future you will see greater attention given to redundant exit towers that are protected with concrete. There is not much else you can do to prevent fire damage at such a huge scale when you have acres burning at once.
21 posted on 10/22/2002 7:35:46 AM PDT by finnman69
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ambrose
There is no way the WTC towers could have fallen over 'domino' style. The towers were not rigid enough for that. After tipping more than 10-15 degrees they would have collapsed under the bending stresses.
22 posted on 10/22/2002 7:37:13 AM PDT by finnman69
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: kattracks
Thats baloney. Im in the construction buisness in NYC and you do not design buildings to collape safely, period. You design buildings to stand up and resist earthquakes, fires, & hurricanes. Unfortunatley, you can't design for Boeing 767 impacts. As it turns out, the supposed study done on the WTC towers regarding a 707 impact may not have even been done.
23 posted on 10/22/2002 7:40:42 AM PDT by finnman69
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: DoughtyOne
One of the problems with these buildings are the vents, shafts and conduits that go up a number of floors.

Thats why building codes specify that vertical shafts be fire rated and pipe penetrations, gaps between curtainwalls and slabs, etc. be sealed with fire stopping to prevent flue effects and fire jumping floor to floor.

The WTC's biggest problem was you had an instantaneous acre sized fire on several floors with multiple penetrations into the building, destroying the compatmentation that was designed to halt the spread of a normal fire. You also had aviation kerosene as an accelerant pouring into the building.

24 posted on 10/22/2002 7:44:58 AM PDT by finnman69
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: DoughtyOne
Silverstein leased the WTC complex but he also developed and owned 7 WTC himself. He had a VERY bad day on September 11.
25 posted on 10/22/2002 7:45:53 AM PDT by finnman69
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: DoughtyOne
The key difference was the lack of jet fuel, which you noted, and made the fire burn hotter in the case of the WTC buildings.

I recently attended a briefing on the entire forensic engineering study of the WTC Attack given by the head of the commissioned study team.

The jet fuel itself wasn't so much a fuel source causing the fire to burn hotter as it was an ignition method that caused the fire to be non-typical.

A third of the fuel burned outside the structures, in fire balls and explosion, a third ran down inside creating incidental fires, and a third spread through out the floors involed with impact like charcoal lighter fluid.

Thus, that last third, caused the entire contents of those floors to begin burning at the same time. Like charcoal lighter, it burned off in twenty minutes or less. The subsiquent fire was non-typical because it wasn't progressive, proceeding form an ignition point. Instead, great temperatures above typical developed because of entire floor burn progression was happening at the same time.

The structuures preformed beyond their design and were designed ahead of their time. Different uses of fire-proofing were the only things that would have prolonged the callapse, but only by minutes. Hardened core systems would have made a difference to victims above the fire, but that is the issue in any highrise.

26 posted on 10/22/2002 7:50:45 AM PDT by KC Burke
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: ambrose
I had read some reports wherein it was speculated that there could have been a domino effect collapse of many Manhattan skyscrapers if the WTC had fallen over rather than implod as it did.

But a thousand lives or more could have been saved by having fire escape stairs at the corners of the building. Not to mention Halon extinguishers. I could live with a slightly larger ozone hole.

27 posted on 10/22/2002 7:52:29 AM PDT by js1138
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: finnman69
Silverstein leased the WTC complex but he also developed and owned 7 WTC himself. He had a VERY bad day on September 11.

I'd venture to guess a few thousand had an even worse day.

28 posted on 10/22/2002 10:21:22 AM PDT by Tall_Texan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: finnman69
Thanks for the comments. I agree with you.
29 posted on 10/22/2002 11:18:00 AM PDT by DoughtyOne
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: finnman69
I guess so.
30 posted on 10/22/2002 11:18:16 AM PDT by DoughtyOne
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: finnman69
I guess so. A very bad day indeed...
31 posted on 10/22/2002 11:18:33 AM PDT by DoughtyOne
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: DoughtyOne
No structural flaw, indeed. I fail to see exactly WHAT could have kept those buildings from collapsing after they got smacked by a widebody apiece...
32 posted on 10/22/2002 11:23:05 AM PDT by Poohbah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: KC Burke
Thanks for the comments. The nearly immediate ignition of a large area on multiple floors would seem to be significant. I am glad to hear your comments regarding the structural integrity of the building. I'd hate to come away thinking sub-par building standards contributed. Was this presentation derived from the fire department or government study?
33 posted on 10/22/2002 11:26:18 AM PDT by DoughtyOne
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Poohbah
I would agree with you, but the issue was raised.
34 posted on 10/22/2002 11:50:01 AM PDT by DoughtyOne
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: DoughtyOne
The talk was by Ronald O Hamburger, SE (Simpson, Gumpertz & Heger, Inc.) working as director of the Building Performance Assessment Team assembled by ASCE/SEI (Structural Engineers Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers) and FEMA. A full report of quite some size is available from FEMA published as FEMA 403.

The abstract given out with the talk states in its Conclusions: " Despite tragic loss...the World Trade Center and surrounding buildings performed very well, considering the severity of events to which they were subjected. It was the overwhelming conclusion of the BPAT that rather than changing our building design and construction practice to better resist events like those of September 11, buildings can best be protected from aircraft attacks by providing improved aircraft security."

Additionally: "The twin towers incorportated extensive continuity, redundancy and overstrength in their structural design, which enabled them to survive the aircraft impact without immediate collapse. Most other buildings do not possess this combination and extent of redundancy, continuity and overstrenght and would not have performed as well. Most other building would have collapsed immediately upon aircraft impact."

Prior to the failure of the nearby WTC-7 there was no record of fire-induced collapse of any fire protected steel frame structure of this size. Fire Protection of certain connections on WTC-7 and WTC-5 would have greatly reduced the possibility of collapse from the fire. But we must remember, that those buildings were permitted to burn without the fire being fought due to loss of life, the circumstances, their state of evacuationand damage, and risk. This was a very non-typical condition.

35 posted on 10/22/2002 12:09:58 PM PDT by KC Burke
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: KC Burke
Fire Protection of certain connections on WTC-7 and WTC-5 would have... should read Increased, localized, Fire Protection of certain connections on WTC-7 and WTC-5 would have...
36 posted on 10/22/2002 12:14:15 PM PDT by KC Burke
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: DoughtyOne; kattracks
I guess the significant item is that the AP article states: The report's analysis contradicts the findings of an earlier federal investigation, which said the World Trade Center's unconventional design contributed to their collapse. The federal study said the towers' weak floor supports gave way during the attacks, triggering a collapse of the entire building.

This appears to me to be a grievous misrepresentation of the FEMA study whose 25 person team did the definative analysis. As these buildings were constructed by the Port Authority they didn't have the same Fire Marshall and City Code permitting that a typical project had and when those agencies were questioned, wild speculation as to causes was allowed to be repeated in the press. The real studies, by the professionals and industry experts showed exactly the opposite to those off-the-cuff armchair comments at the time.

37 posted on 10/22/2002 12:21:44 PM PDT by KC Burke
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: finnman69
Contractors build; others destroy.
38 posted on 10/22/2002 12:22:49 PM PDT by KC Burke
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: KC Burke
Since you seem to be industry related, I'd like to make a suggestion.  It seems to me that any building with more than twenty floors, should have in-house fire stations, along the lines of off-site police kiosks, only more extensive.  Perhaps there should be one of these for every twenty floors.  Strategically located, fire personnel could be on site at the problem in just a few minutes after an event was spotted.

They would know the building.  They would have generated superior emergency preparedness conditions.  They could be on site observing all sorts of equipment and infrastructure repairs to make sure proper fire procedures were adhered to.  They would drive home the importance of adhering to fire procedures when alarms go off.

In a large building, it might not be a bad idea to require this around the clock on site fire personnel as part of the business licensing process.

These large buildings are essentially mini-cities.  It doesn't seem all that unreasonable to provide on site fire services.

39 posted on 10/22/2002 12:39:34 PM PDT by DoughtyOne
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: KC Burke
Thanks for the comments. I agree with your analysis.
40 posted on 10/22/2002 12:41:48 PM PDT by DoughtyOne
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-42 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson