Ashland Shooting: Sunday Updates

Various ^ | 10-20-02 | GRRRRR

[GRRRRR]

The other thread is running over 2800 posts...so here's a new place to post for Sunday.

Per FOXNews, a 10am EASTERN news conference is planned. Two travelers pulled off I-95 for dinner at a Ponderosa Steak House. The Man, 37, was shot in the gut while his wife stood next to him.

Bullet has NOT been removed from the man while, after surgery, he remains in Critical but GUARDED condition, however, x-rays are expected to provide some dimensional analysis of the slug. Further surgeries may be required on the victim, according to FOX and then the bullet is likely to be recovered.

Meanwhile, the "white" box truck/van that was found with a "Shell" in it at Dulles is reported to be a 7.62 (.030'??) OLD shell and NOT expected to be part of the "Sniper Shootings".

Multiple LEA's are now in Ashland, VA located about 80 miles south of DC to begin more site investigations at first light of dawn.

Numerous witnesses in the area saw the man fall down and provided aid to the man. The man was still conscious and spoke during the rescue. According to (spit) CNN, there will be NO news conferences from the hospital.

Over to you Laurie Dhue...GRRRRRollin'

[hole_n_one]

So I have to ask: Do you sir/madam, sympathize or agree with the terrorism we are experiencing in this country and against our national interests and those performing these acts?

No, you really didn't have to ask such an inane, offensive question.

[texasbluebell]

There is not a decent government in the middle east, with the exception of Isreal, and possibley Turkey. If the Islamic gogernments quit enslaving and abusing the female 50% of the population

You've hit 2 very important points, which I've just heard a little about. First that one of the major problems with Islam is that except for Turkey, there is absolutely no moslem country that is a anything other than a dictatorship. (I certainly can't think of another one at this moment.)

And second--someone I was listening to the other day probably on Fox said that because of their treatment of women, Islam has never been able progress out of the dark ages.

So good points you made!

[texasbluebell]

I don't know enough about weapons to answer your question, but I have a feeling there are many around here who are very knowledgeable about that! They just have showed up here yet.

But that's a good point, that the guy/s could stick around, especially if they have a safe house in the area.

Someone after one of the shootings last week said that a news report had the white van driving off towards a restaurant. Now I don't know if the van actually went in the parking lot of that restaurant, but it got me to thinking that they could have pulled into some large garage behind a business in the area. And then switched to a different vehicle.

[justlurking]

any medical types in here care to weigh in on the frequency of a bullet being left in a shooting victim ?

It's anecdoctal, rather than statistical -- I knew a guy with a .223 bullet in his buttocks. It was a freak accident that wasn't his fault: he was just standing in the wrong place at the wrong time.

They left it there because it wasn't doing any harm. But, it was close to an important nerve, and the fear was they would do more damage trying to remove it.

[justlurking]

one wouldn't intuitively think that a ragged piece of lead floating around in there would be particularly healthy

An addenda to my earlier anecdote: my friend was told that the body would encase the foreign body in scar tissue and it wouldn't move around.

[Bacons Rebellion]

"My thought is that they don't want the general populace to panic. I think a lot of what we're seeing is all to that end. To keep a lid on it. Imagine what will happen when they can no longer deny to us what is really happening."


I think that you are correct. However, I would submit that the FBI is already running the investigation in concert with the ATF and other Federal agencies. Chief Moose is being used only as a titular head of this investigation. This is in order to prevent the press and media from asking questions of the Federal agencies. Moose will be allowed to continue to stumble along in this role because he effectively insulates the activities of the various Federal agencies currently taking part in the investigation. He is obviously not a competent individual for heading an investigation of this magnitude and importance. However, from the standpoint of the FBI he is quite useful as a buffer. It is unlikely that the media will attack either his personal performance as a briefer (I've never seen worse) or the appearance that this very large and hugely expensive investigation seems to be foundering, inept and grossly unproductive. Moose is a product of the quota system and as such he remains a protected species regardless of how poorly he may perform.

I cannot believe that all the FBI agents investigating this case are as obtuse as the pronouncements of Chief Moose and the pletora of criminologists, bumbling former law enforcement types and profilers (do they actually emply wee gee boards?) that continually appear on television would have us believe. Some of them must have reached the conclusion long ago that this is middle eastern connected terrorism and that the team or teams of these terrorists have received some fairly good training. Their escape and evasion techniques seem particularly effective. In point of fact they are quiet good at creating terror on a large scale with a minimum expediture of resources. Which is what terrorism is all about.

The problem with the investigation is that the FBI's culture is one that is derived from investigating standard domestic criminal acts and building cases suitable for presentation in a court of law. They have relatively little experience in dealing with sophisticated foreign based terrorism. Either the FBI will have to be modified to fit such a role or they will ultimately have to be replaced with a new Federal agency better suited to this task. One that can deal effectively with this sort of threat. In the interim don't expect that great strides will be made in this or any other investigations of this type.

[justlurking]

I would like to know from someone knowledgeable in firearms whether from available evidence of the type of weapon used whether such weapon can be broken down and, if so, how rapidly?

There are semi-auto rifles chambered in .223 with collapsible stocks. Depending on the length of the barrel, it could be concealed easily.

However, I have a suspicion that the shooter is using a standard bolt-action rifle that does not eject the spent brass. Unless the police are withholding the info, there's been only one instance where the spent brass has been recovered. However, I'm not sure that's been conclusively linked to the shooter.

Either the shooter is not ejecting the brass or he is recovering it. If he is shooting from these wooded areas, he would have to delay his escape and search for it in the dark. Or, he could be shooting from inside a vehicle.

If the weapon used can be easily concealed after the shooting, I think there may be a reasonable probability that the shooter may be staying in vicinity as a motel which would validate the theory that shooter merely waits for a white van getting ready to move.

I've been suspecting that the shooter has a support network that provides him a safe haven nearby. He can lay low for a few days and then depart without being challenged.

I think the white van hypothesis is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If the shooter ever used one, he most certainly is not doing so now. But, there are so many of them on the road, the probability of one randomly being in the immediate vicinity of a shooting is nearly 100%.

[tomkat]

so did your friend say if the damned thing had mushroomed and/or fragged when it entered his butt ?

musta sucked to not be able to sit down for, what, six weeks ?
yikes ...

[tutstar]

Now you've done it!!

How dare you awaken the craving???

[tomkat]

yikes²
guess i coulda worded that a little better, huh ?

[tomkat]

an excellent synopsis of the situation, imho.
kudos !

[KSCITYBOY]

Radical islam has been around since atleast the 1920s and probably much longer. Their leaders like bin laden attain power much like hitler did by vilifying a group of people like the Jews. Radical islam has chosen to go after infidels which is everyone who is not a devote muslim. The USA is their main target now because not only our support of Israel but our western culture which these idiots precieve as a direct threat to thier pure islamic world. Now you may think it a good idea to let them dictate our policy but even if we completely retreated from the middle east they would still be attacking us. Say they want us to provide money to support their pure islamic society well just kill some Americans force them to send the money. Once you give in to these people you will suffer even more. When they want something they will simply threaten us. I would much rather aggressively go after the leadership of radical islam than cowtow to their policys. They want the world to be a pure islamic state. I would rather die then bow to thier tierany - This is truly a holy war. Muslim's against all others. You can't appease murderers.

[tomkat]

my #111 applies to your #107 as well !

[KSCITYBOY]

Good points.

[aculeus]

The problem with the investigation is that the FBI's culture is one that is derived from investigating standard domestic criminal acts and building cases suitable for presentation in a court of law.

Soon after 9-11 the WSJ reported that the FBI had formed "black" squads, people who were NOT concerned about building cases but who would use dirty tricks (breaking in without warrants, for example) to prevent terrorism. Other investigators would continue to adhere to the rules.

I applauded that move at the time but have read nothing since that one report.

[waterstraat]

Look at the facts, America did not always live in fear of arab terrorism. It is a recent development. The arabs themselves will tell you this, and why they are doing what they are doing."

"So I have to ask: Do you sir/madam, sympathize or agree with the terrorism we are experiencing in this country and against our national interests and those performing these acts? I don't give a hoot whether you profess to "understand" it. I want to know if YOU AGREE with it."

Just because someone states the facts about a horrible situation doesn't mean that they are in support of the conditions which cause it or even the solution which might end it. The first step in solving a problem is facing the truth. All of the truth.

I see we have an intelligent poster.

[KSCITYBOY]

Yes "unclesham" no bias there. Give me a break.

[waterstraat]

I think there may be a reasonable probability that the shooter may be staying in vicinity as a motel which would validate the theory that shooter merely waits for a white van getting ready to move.

I thought the same thing myself, if I was going to do such a thing, that is what I would do. Dont know if this guy is that smart though. There are lots of white vans, and waiting until one is ready to move, is no hard thing to do.

[monocle]

I am reluctant to ascribe these shootings to organized terror because human nature is such that once such a conclusion is reached all evidence pointing to some other than an organized terrorist will be rejected with the obvious result being a delayed capture. As things now stand almost all witnesses a seeing a white van - a conditioned response. The same is true for the issue of a "safe house". These shootings have all be sufficiently geographically separated as make a safe house available at a distance short enough to avoid being stopped at a roadblock. I would not be surprised if the shooter actually stayed at the scene of the shooting and causally walked to a nearby motel, like an arsonist staying around to watch his handiwork.

[Huggy]

Inane? That is not my opinion based on the framing of the post I referenced. I believe that my question was quite sensible based on my perception of the post. Yet, I have not received any response. No problem; I will draw my own conclusions.

Offensive? My question was not meant to incite or be offensive. What I find offensive, however, is the attack on our country and our families within our own borders. I also find the liberal apologists in the form of groups like NION who attempt to subvert our war against those responsible for the attacks, previous, current and yet to come.

When the safety of my family, friends and fellow countrymen is in question, I find anyone who attemtps to explain the attacks against us away by dissecting our fereign policy inane and offensive.

I do not wish to enter into a diatribe, although I will do everything in my power to insure the safety of my family and my country. Anyone who wants to find a sane purpose or logical reason for the events we are experiencing, I contend, fits the definition of inane and offensive.

If you disagree, I suppose that is your right. To those wanting to stick to the intended nature of this thread, I apologize, and will refrain from further engagement.