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Ballistic Fingerprinting will be a joke soon, or why the Moose can't admit the shooter has a AK-74
The fetid mind of TC Rider ^ | 10-16-02 | TC Rider

Posted on 10/16/2002 11:21:33 AM PDT by TC Rider

Ballistic Fingerprinting will be a joke soon, or why the Moose can't admit the shooter has a AK-74

Chief Moose and others involved with the investigation into the sniper shootings can't lend any credence to the witness who claims he saw a AK-74, because it would point out the ineptness of all of the ballistic testing to date.

After Moose, the ATF and others trotted out all of the Mini-14's and AR-15 variants that used .223 ammo, they know they are in trouble if it turns out to be a AK-74.

While the tests that show all of the rounds to have been fired from the same weapon may be accurate, they produced the wrong weapon.

Additionally, Kathleen Kennedy-Townsend, the VPC, Sarah Brady, Governor Glendingaling and others calling for ballistic fingerprinting will have to eat a lot of crow.

The problem for them is, that while all the US made weapons and the AK-74 fire a nearly identical .223 diameter projectile, or bullet, the actual complete round is slightly different in length and uses a different brass casing.

Does anyone else recall some of the early reports that the sniper was using some kind of special 'military' bullet? Chances are the sniper is using Wolf or some surplus Russian ammo.

I knew when they produced the .223 casing from the schoolyard shooting they were in trouble. It looked like it had laid in the woods for ages, or was a steel casing from Russian ammo . If it turns out the sniper is using a AK-74, that cartridge can't have come from it. It is actually possible to fire AR-15 ammo in the AK-74, but not recommended. The case is a tad longer, does not completely seat in a AK-74 chamber and will make a very tell-tale bulge in the base of the case, provided it doesn't explode out of the ejection port. So if the US AR-15 casing had been fired, the geniuses at ATF should have picked up on the tell-tale bulge at the base, where the round does not fully seat.

What the shooter is probably firing is 5.45X39 Russian hollow point ammo.

I've noticed that in the last day or two, a lot of the calls for ballistic fingerprinting are focusing more on bullets and less on casings. I suspect the powers that be, know that they are now dealing with a AK-74 and haven't quite figured out how to cover their asses.

Bottom line, even if nationwide ballistic fingerprinting had been in place for all firearms in America, it would not have helped in the least in this case. It might have led to the arrest and harassment of some poor SOB who had hunted in that area 12 years ago, provided the technology was good enough to trace the casing back to his own hunting rifle.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: ak74; ar15; banglist; gungrabbers; moose; sniper
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To: JHrules
Jim;

Thanks for the kind note.

It is clear that more people need to be talking about how flexible the science is around the whole .223 issue.

Brent

Brent E. Turvey, M.S. Forensic Science

101 posted on 10/16/2002 3:42:51 PM PDT by Chapita
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To: TC Rider
It ain't deviousness, it's practicality. If your weapon can fire the enemy's rounds you've eased your supply problem. I'm not sure it carried over to small arms, but Soviet-built artillery was designed to use NATO rounds with minor modification. For instance, the West uses an 81mm mortar; the Soviets used an 82mm mortar which could use Western rounds with, IIRC, a small sabot. Of course the bigger Russian rounds would not fit in the Western tubes.
102 posted on 10/16/2002 3:52:50 PM PDT by Junior
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To: skip2myloo
Can you mount a sniper scope on this AK -74?
103 posted on 10/16/2002 4:19:10 PM PDT by virgil
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To: JHrules
I agree. By the way does anyone know at what point we can start to consider this guy a terrorist? Can someone find the legal definition of a terrorist act? I think we should just put this guy to death if we get him alive (after major tourture interigation that is).

I heard someone on Fox say the sniper may not be Al Queda directed, but could certainly be Al Queda inspired, like the LA airport shooter, back in July.

Still a terrorist. Still a good reason for some sensible profiling.

104 posted on 10/16/2002 4:37:28 PM PDT by TC Rider
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To: lsee
I think it's the second one. There's also a video they used to show frequently of him actually shooting one.
105 posted on 10/16/2002 4:38:34 PM PDT by Jaxter
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To: virgil
Can you mount a sniper scope on this AK -74?

You can mount any scope or target aid you want on anything your heart desires as long as you can find the gun smith to do it. For a pro sharp shooter you have two catagories the rich and the thrifty. The rich are the ones who have their rifle custom made, ex. Garcia the founder of the Army's sniper school had the government pick up the tab for his $80,000 custom made 50 cal. I, hobby sharp shooter, on the other hand am an average american (I have higher debt then annual income) and my rifle cost $300 with a $75 scope.(30-30 bolt action)

106 posted on 10/16/2002 4:48:13 PM PDT by JHrules
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To: JHrules
****He thinks he is way smarter then the police or his targets ****

Stipulated.
107 posted on 10/16/2002 6:30:33 PM PDT by mercy
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To: virgil
The SAR-2 comes with side mount. I put a KOBRA on mine. Choice of 4 different reticles. Adjustable for light conditions. Light weight, easy on, easy off.Breeze to sight in and retains it's zero when removed. Approx. $120.
108 posted on 10/16/2002 7:03:06 PM PDT by donozark
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To: TC Rider
Chances are the sniper is using Wolf or some surplus Russian ammo.

I can say the same disclaimer as you, though I've done my share of reloading in the past. But I own a Mini-14 and SKS, and my experience with this cheap Chinese and Russion ammo is negative. In other words, at 100 yards, I was lucky to hit the paper let alone the black on a 100-yard NRA target. The stuff is junk, literally "spray and pray". You get what you pay for. If this shooter is hitting square in the vitals or the head every time, assuming it's 100 yds or more, he's using high quality ammo. Not that it matters that much. My opinion anyway. I just wish they'd catch the perp and let the victims' families have at him.

109 posted on 10/16/2002 7:25:52 PM PDT by FlyVet
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To: JHrules
Didn't Russian snipers in Afghanistan use this weapon? I should think they had scopes.
110 posted on 10/16/2002 7:30:44 PM PDT by aristeides
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To: TC Rider
You know I've read a a lot of posts on several threads and have not noticed anyone saying the following:

"The police retrieved the spent case laying in the parking lot following the Home Depot murder."

This is in combination with the witnesses identifying some type of Kalashnikov. And in addition to 11 bullets at least some of which must have some residual rifling marks.

When Mark Fuhrman stated that it was an AK 74 he likely had enough info to do so.

BTW, the Soviets and Chinese deployed some arty and mortar pieces that would use our ammo. Never heard of that on the small arms level though.

111 posted on 10/16/2002 7:58:51 PM PDT by Rockpile
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To: Rockpile
You know I've read a a lot of posts on several threads and have not noticed anyone saying the following:

"The police retrieved the spent case laying in the parking lot following the Home Depot murder."

Good point, from my research it appears the AK-74 has a very healthy ejector mechanism. Supposedly can toss spent brass 15 to 40 feet away. If he's been shooting from inside a van box, that may account for the scarcity of found brass.

There are also gadgets that attach a cloth bag over the ejection port to retain brass.

Another thing I read on the AK-74, specifically those built to fire Remington .223, is that it's very easy to accidentally do a double-tap. Obviously, that hasn't happened, so maybe he's just loading one round at a time.

Somehow, I doubt we'll ever learn all of the details, unless a trial ends up on TV.

112 posted on 10/17/2002 8:12:51 AM PDT by TC Rider
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To: Shooter 2.5
The proper term of a device for catching empty cartridge CASES is a brass catcher.

Sorry. Never used one, figured they existed, but didn't know exactly what to call them.

113 posted on 10/17/2002 8:44:24 AM PDT by 1L
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To: billhilly
and Pa sez sandhill cranes have a real oily taste...

mighta been from the slough they were sitting in.

114 posted on 10/19/2002 7:51:22 PM PDT by packrat01
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To: packrat01
Yer pa n' me wuz buddies. He wuz rite n' don fergit it, lest he come back 'n whop yer butt.
115 posted on 10/19/2002 8:06:54 PM PDT by billhilly
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