THE OKLAHOMA CITY -- 911 CONNECTION

http://twa800.com/news/mastalk-10-10-02.htm ^ | 10/13/02 | Michael Smerconish

[jjm2111]

And Oswald used that POS rifle?

[swarthyguy]

Len Colodny's Book Silent Coup and one by Peter Dale Scott, i believe covered the circumstances of that crash.

[Darth Dan]

So...um...do you have a book or something coming out?

[jcmfreedom]

I would also like to add that Clinton was being investigated for Whitewater at the time. I do believe that Oklahoma was the regional center for storage of tax materials. It was rather convenient to have all those records destroyed.

[Asmodeus]

"I also believe Flight 800 was knocked down by a missle."

Most assumed that at the outset too (including James Kallstrom) because of the initial reports of a fiery streak followed immediately by a huge fireball. However, a U.S. satellite detected that Massive Fireball explosion about a mile above the surface, NOT at 13,800 feet where the Initial Event took place at 8:31:12. In short, the fiery events observed by the witnesses took place much later and much lower in the sky than initially assumed. The timeline and location of the major events of the TWA 800 disaster was approximately as follows:

8:31:11 Intact and climbing 747 approaches 13,800 feet.

8:31:12 Initiating Event at 13,800 feet followed immediately by the commencement of the decapitation process.

8:31:43-8:31:47 Streak of light appears.

8:31:47 Explosion of Massive Fireball at 5500-7500 feet.

8:31:55-8:31:57 Splashdown of the Massive Fireball flames.
Source - The "Missile Witnesses" Myth.

Swordmaker disagrees with that sequential timeline and has posted his own very detailed sequential timeline in FreeRepublic which can be reviewed in its entirety by clicking here. Following are 2 excerpts from it.

20:31:13 - ~13,840 ft. ~1 sec. Missile strikes TWA800 on left side at approximately seat row 16-17 transects the passenger cabin spewing partially burned solid rocket fuel (and leaving a red residue on seats in this area), taking out passengers and seats in rows 17-18 and exits aircraft through right side. VDR ends in loud, strange sound. Bright white Ordnance type explosion occurs just after missile exits thin walled cabin. Blast places massive overpressure on nose of aircraft and opens wide gap in side of aircraft. Parts of missile continue on momentum at speed approaching MACH 2 at a vector 190 degrees from north, ejecta from aircraft including seats, passengers, luggage to eventually land in "crosswind blast debris" field. The blast imparts a slightly more eastward vector for the ejecta which combined with the ejecta's already present eastward momentum results in the ejecta coming to rest about 175 degrees from the point of ejection.

20:31:39:64 - ~7,000 ft. - 27.64 sec. Sixth post IE radar return. - Center Wing Tank explodes from spark caused by MECHANICAL breaking of metal. Volatile air-fuel mix surrounding aircraft ignited into Massive Fireball, Hot fireball begins to RISE, while burning plane falls through bottom of Fireball still spewing liquid fuel which ignites on exit from wingtanks.

That boils down to this:

20:31:13 - ~13,840 ft. Initiating Event - includes bright white Ordnance type explosion. (IE)

20:31:39 - ~7,000 ft. Massive Fireball explosion. (MF)

Note the approximately 26 seconds elapsed time between Initiating Event at 13,840 feet and the Massive Fireball explosion at 7000 feet in Swordmaker's sequential timeline. Yet, New York Air National Guard Major Frederick Meyers, touted as the Star "shootdown" witness by some, clearly indicates in his very detailed report that the elapsed time between the Initiating Event and the Massive Fireball explosion was only 3-4 seconds
Source - The Report of Major Frederick Meyers.

Major Meyer's Own Press Graphic

Note that the "bright white ordnance explosion" referred to by Swordmaker was engulfed by the Massive Fireball explosion as further documented in the following sequential graphics prepared by the New York Air National Guard after debriefing Major Meyer and his Jolly 14 helicopter crewmates.

NYANG Sequential Graphics

Here's a related posting from an author who hasn't yet further clarified his comments therein or published his own sequential timeline.

Yahoo TWA800 forum - 15 March 2002
From: John Fiorentino
Subject: Re: [twa800] A little sensitive, aren't we?
[excerpt][quote]
However, based on Meyer's statements, I don't believe he witnessed the IE. Fl. 800 didn't explode in a MF at 13000+, the MF was somewhere 7500-8500ft. Look at his timeline, Please explain, HOW he could have witnessed the IE?
[end quote]

Another supposedly Star "shootdown" witness is Dwight Brumley. He clearly indicated during at least one interview that he saw the fiery streak disappear under the airliner he was riding in and the emergence of the Massive Fireball 1-2 seconds later. It should go without saying he could not possibly have seen a missile shoot down Flight 800 at 13,800 feet only 1-2 seconds before he saw the Massive Fireball explosion at about 5500-7500 feet. In fact, he's even quoted during another of his interviews as stating: "I could not positively say that what I saw was a missile. What I saw was a very bright flame of light moving parallel to my aircraft".
Source - Witness Dwight Brumley Interviews.

As earlier noted, Swordmaker's very detailed complete sequential timeline is available for your review and that of other interested readers by clicking here.

[IncPen]

Interesting stuff. I'll follow the links and see where they go.

Color me skeptical, but interested.

[JohnFiorentino]

I believe I DID post my timeline on another thread Barr. I believe you read it.........If you didn't, it was the ONLY thing you seem to have missed from me...And, no, before you ask me to waste more time......I'm not going to re-post it......YOU dig it up, and post it yourself........Something you ARE an "expert" at.

[Asmodeus]

It will be noted that Swordmaker has chosen not to try to defend his "shootdown" sequential timeline todate and that John Fiorentino, who continues to appear to be a "bomb" guy (see below & prior postings in this thread), believes he posted his own sequential timeline somewhere sometime in the past but is unwilling or unable to provide the readers with the URL.

Yahoo TWA800 forum - 18 June 2001
From: John Fiorentino
Subject: The most likely scenario so far
[excerpt][quote][emphasis added]
Officials July 29 said that the event that triggered the crash appeared to have taken place toward the front of the plane. However, probers August 12 said they were focusing their examination on the center of the airplane, where the craft's wings met. Cantamessa July 29 said that the bodies of passengers seated near the front of the plane had more severe injuries than those in the rear section. Probers July 30 said that heavy damage to the recovered landing gear supported the theory that a bomb went off in the plane's forward section. [end quote]

From: John Fiorentino - Yahoo TWA 800 Forum - 18 June 2001
Subject: The most likely scenario so far.
From: John Fiorentino - 18 June 2001
Subject: The most likely scenario so far
[excerpt][quote][emphasis added]
Just for s--ts and grins my son and I popped off a road flare and placed it close to the back of a discarded child car seat which had a foam backing to it. Left a reddish brown residue very similar to Sanders' swatch. Remember My scientist friend who thought the chem analysis resembled residue from a "flare?" [end quote]

[Swordmaker]

Asmodeus,

There is no need to "defend" my timeline... it speaks for itself... and is based MORE than two witnesses. As I pointed out in MY timeline, it is YOUR sequence of events and YOUR timeline that does not fit with the physical data from the radar returns.

You have presented NOTHING new and merely continue to push YOUR website as your authoritative source.

[Asmodeus]

"There is no need to "defend" my timeline... it speaks for itself... and is based MORE than two witnesses."

Who are the witnesses you're claiming to be relying on for your approximately 26 seconds elapsed time between the Initiating Event and the Massive Fireball explosion and where are their reports and reference source URL's for the readers to review their reports?

[Swordmaker]

"...where are their reports and reference source URL's for the readers to review their reports?

What readers are those, Asmodeus?

Other than you, John Fiorentino, and I, the last reader was here more than a week ago. John and I know that you are full of it and we are NOT going to able to make you change your tune... so why waste the effort.

For what it is worth, my timeline is based on more than two witnesses... it is based on objective observations, actual timed events, and the laws of physics, as well as eye witness reports.

[Asmodeus]

From your sequential timeline:

21:31:07 - Mike Wire notices flare like object rising over house and arcing to left. In the next 8 seconds many more people notice streak, firework, etc.

So let's focuse once again on your allegation that approximately 26 seconds elapsed between the Initiating Event and Massive Fireball explosion in the following two times/places/events you have also alleged -

20:31:13 - ~13,840 ft. - Initiating Event, includes bright white Ordnance type explosion. (IE)

20:31:39 - ~7,000 ft. - Massive Fireball explosion. (MF)

- and compare that to the following:

"That one eyewitness is Michael Wire, a machinery expert who was working on a new drawbridge on Beach Lane, a road running from Westhampton, Long Island, to the beach. Wire's FBI report says that standing on the bridge, looking toward the beach, he saw a white light just above the rooftop of a house about 900 feet away, ascending from the ground at about a 40 degree angle. It "sparkled" and he thought it was fireworks. It "zig zagged" as it traveled upward and was going south-southeast when it "arched over" and disappeared from view. Two or three seconds later he saw an orange light that appeared to be a fireball in the sky about half a mile away. It was falling at about a 30-degree angle, with a fire trail burning behind it." Source - Donaldson Brothers TWA800 "Shootdown" Website

Note that the "two or three seconds is almost exactly the same as witness Meyer's 3-4 seconds and witness Brumley's 1-2 seconds but in all 3 cases over 20 seconds less than the 26 seconds elapsed time between the IE and MF you have alleged.

The "shootdown" scenario alleged in your sequential timeline is entirely dependent on whether the elapsed time in question was about 1-4 seconds or the 26 seconds you have contended.

It appears that NONE of the "shootdown" website authors have endorsed your sequential timeline by including it in their sites. However, it is now here.

[Swordmaker]

YOU are confabulating the initiating event and a small fireball at approximately 13,800 feet with the Massive Fireball of the fuel explosion at 7000 feet... two entirely different explosions. Mike Wire's FBI report IS NOT the event, nor does Mike Wire endorse the secondhand recollections of an FBI agent as reported in the FBI's version of his statement.

I will not respond on this thread again as it merely is for your gratification since there are NO other readers or posters here.

[Asmodeus]

Major Meyer's report includes his very specific estimates of the elapsed times between the fiery events he saw in the sky and that report puts the time of the bright white light explosion at only 3-4 seconds before the Massive Fireball explosion. Your allegation that the bright white light explosion took place at 13,800 feet where the Initiating Event took place is obviously in conflict with his report.