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Columbus Now: Villain or Hero?
Burlington County Times ^ | October 13, 2002 | Jason Bodnar

Posted on 10/13/2002 11:11:15 AM PDT by Tancred

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To: nicmarlo
I'm not sure too many women were taken as slaves. Weren't they mostly gang raped to death? Great guys, those noble Indians... There is a logical reason the phrase "the only good Indian is a dead Indian" came about. Not that all tribes were bad. Not that America was right in murdering so many Indians. But when it came to tit for tat, some tribes habit of avenging the death of 3 braves with the massacre of 30 men, women and children really did more to ignite that response than anything else.

Not that we didn't royally screw the Indians. Example is when we found gold on previously worthless reservation than continually pushed the tribes to worse and worse land. No wonder they went to war.

What an ugly situation. But the plains Indians were no saints, that is for sure!
21 posted on 10/13/2002 3:30:41 PM PDT by Freedom_Is_Not_Free
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free
I don't know, of course, how many women and children were kidnapped and enslaved, or mistreated. I do remember reading a diary of one woman from the colonies, who was treated, according to her credible accounts, very well, as were all other white women/children. She freely admitted life was hard, not as comfortable, as it was amongst her own people. And, if I'm not mistaken (which I might be), I believe treated equally as well as the other indian women, in this particular tribe. I can't remember the title of the diary. I read it in college.
22 posted on 10/13/2002 3:43:12 PM PDT by nicmarlo
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To: Tancred
Boy! If he did all the things the third worlders say he did, I'll rethink my position on Columbus.
23 posted on 10/13/2002 3:48:29 PM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free
Okay, you made me look it up and here it is:

"A Narrative of the Captivity and Restoration of Mrs. Mary Rowlandson"

I have in my notes on the side of the text (as given to me by my professor): "This piece was meant to fulfill the requirements of literature, not necessarily, the truth." And: "What she was writing was the expected thing: captivity narrative fits in with dooms day." Further into the piece, I have written down: "These things she writes will all be read with horror, 'how horrible she had to go through that' (the lack of creature comforts). . . she's in the wilderness and among the heathen. The only reason she's surviving is because of the Bible and God is with her."

Translation here: My recollections were correct: she was well treated and given food from the little they had to offer. She was not raped and was treated with dignity. At the time this was written, the white people would view having to live with "savage heathens" as a punishment of God and perhaps a deserved one of this woman. Therefore, if she survived this, then it was only because God was merciful to her, etc.

24 posted on 10/13/2002 3:54:59 PM PDT by nicmarlo
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To: alloysteel
The political landscape of the Americas of 1400 would make the Middle East look like a peaceful suburban scene.

Why would you say such a thing?


25 posted on 10/13/2002 4:10:58 PM PDT by Polybius
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To: nicmarlo
Early on, when colonists (usually women, but sometimes children) were abducted by Indians, they were brought into the tribe (at a low status), unless they were tracked down and "purchased back". This is a practice that the tribes did to one another. As such, the captives were generally treated fairly well, although not always. This activity, however, occurred among the EASTERN tribes. These folks were really fairly civilized according to the standards of the 14th and 15th centuries. The Algonquins and the Iroquios (James Fenimore Cooper notwithstanding) were already operating confederacies, and some of their concepts were incorporated by Benjamin Franklin into the first Articles of Confederation. They were devastated by disease (some tribes losing 9 in 10), otherwise the history of this country might have been significantly different. Because of the devastation, the survivors were adopted into either other tribes or into colonial settlements. This is why those of us who have ancestors here who settled in the very early years have some Indian genes, although not from any tribes that are recognized (since they are all extinct.)

The diseases were so terrible that there was a very interesting side effect. Europeans would arrive and find areas of forest (and remember, this was old growth REALLY big tree type forest) already cleared and planted with crops - and no one there. They felt this was due to "providence", e.g., God made it happen for them. So they had an easier time of it when this happened. Why did it happen? Because the tribes who had cleared the land, and planted the crops - had been wiped out. This is clearly documented in the very early histories. It had been pretty much forgotten by the 18th century, and don't even bother looking for it even in the scholarly histories today - they don't bother using "original sources" anymore. You can find it out if you really, really look - along with some other very interesting but completely untaught history.

All that said, the WESTERN indians were a fairly ruthless bunch. This is a behavior trait that is noted in nomadic and desert peoples. Being captured by many of the Western tribes was a very unpleasant experience.

26 posted on 10/13/2002 4:15:12 PM PDT by dark_lord
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To: RobbyS
The problem with the "anything's possible" school of thought is that there's virtually no possibility that can be conclusively eliminated - maybe the ancient American peoples learned to make pyramids from the Lizard Men of Zeta Reticuli. Hey, anything's possible, right?

But you can't construct a coherent historical narrative that way. Essentially, the "anything's possible" argument is a slightly less obvious form of the fallacy of the argument ad ignoratium, the argument from ignorance. "We don't really know" plus "anything's possible" doesn't equal a rational reason to believe a particular thing to be true.

So, instead we (not unreasonably) go with the events that are best supported by the currently available - what else can we do, really? And by that standard, there's no affirmative reason to believe in the notion that ancient African sailors brought culture to mesoamericans...

27 posted on 10/13/2002 4:22:45 PM PDT by general_re
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To: general_re
...best available evidence...
28 posted on 10/13/2002 4:25:15 PM PDT by general_re
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To: alloysteel
The Articles of Confederation were a word-for-word translation from the oral tradition of the Iroquois (Six Nations) tribal constitution that dated from pre-Columbian times.

Urban legend. The Articles were drafted by John Dickenson. The Indians had nothing like its provisions for a Senate, annual elections, term limits, super-majority voting required for debts, etc.

29 posted on 10/13/2002 4:26:18 PM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: dark_lord
Thanks, I meant to add that this woman was in an eastern tribe and the kinder attributes associated only with them. I am aware the western tribes were ruthless, amongst themselves and the white people. I didn't take many history courses, but I did learn quite a bit in my American Literature classes, where we did go to original texts as sources. Thanks for your informative post. You must be a history buff.
30 posted on 10/13/2002 4:33:47 PM PDT by nicmarlo
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To: alloysteel
 And now the revisionists would overthrow that
document as well, as being too restrictive to their "liberties".

Do you have a cite for that?  I am not familiar with a
movement among historians to overthrow the US
Constitution.  Surely something that radical must have
a Web presence.

31 posted on 10/13/2002 5:02:07 PM PDT by gcruse
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To: PatrickHenry
Urban legend. The Articles were drafted by John Dickenson. The Indians had nothing like its provisions for a Senate, annual elections, term limits, super-majority voting required for debts, etc.

Benjamin Franklin invited the Iroquois to Albany, New York, to explain their system to a delegation who then developed the "Albany Plan of Union." This document later served as input for the Articles of Confederation.

Albany Plan of Union
Articles of Confederation

Yes, anyone who says that the Articles of Confederation were a "word for word" translation from the oral tradition of the Iroquois (how the heck you do a word for word translation of a "tradition" I have no idea) is incorrect. However, there is evidence that the Iroquois Confederacy was studied and used as input. I think this was also true of some of the other Algonquin political structures as well.

Big difference between "input" and "word for word translation", though.

32 posted on 10/13/2002 5:19:20 PM PDT by dark_lord
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To: alloysteel
It would take very little research to find that many early so-called native American groups were total savages who had no compunctions whatsoever about murdering, raping, pillaging, scalping, burning and generally annihilating any tribe they cared to.

There is, of course, a lot to be said for their better communion with nature than us modern day honkeys but making heros out of savages is simple historical revision.

As to being first. I doubt it. Ancient people from Asia were crossing the land mass now separated from North America by the Bering Strait long, long ago.

The first native American was probably the offspring of a Mongol or Inuit who trekked over from Asia.

33 posted on 10/13/2002 5:20:38 PM PDT by JimVT
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To: alloysteel
It would take very little research to find that many early so-called native American groups were total savages who had no compunctions whatsoever about murdering, raping, pillaging, scalping, burning and generally annihilating any tribe they cared to.

There is, of course, a lot to be said for their better communion with nature than us modern day honkeys but making heros out of savages is simple historical revision.

As to being first. I doubt it. Ancient people from Asia were crossing the land mass now separated from North America by the Bering Strait long, long ago.

The first native American was probably the offspring of a Mongol or Inuit who trekked over from Asia.

34 posted on 10/13/2002 5:21:47 PM PDT by JimVT
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To: dark_lord
However, there is evidence that the Iroquois Confederacy was studied and used as input. I think this was also true of some of the other Algonquin political structures as well.

I donno about that either. The Articles were drafted in July 1776, same month as the Declaration. Not much time for getting input from too many sources.

The first draft was defeated because -- can you believe it -- it created too strong a government. One of the main problems was how the expenses of the national government would be apportioned among the states -- by population or by land values. And if by population, how would the slaves be counted? (I think the 3/5 clause had its genesis in the negotiations over that.) Anyway, they ended up with a real estate tax provision. It wasn't approved by all the states until 1781, because the two smallest states (Rhode Island and (I think) Maryland wanted the two biggest (New York and Virginia) to give up their claims to land going all the way to the Mississippi. When they did, the two holdout states signed, and the land the two states gave up became the Northwest Territory.

35 posted on 10/13/2002 5:32:16 PM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: Tancred
Since ol' Chris Columbus has been dead for, oh, around 500 years, I shouldn't think he'd care a whit what folks in our time think of him!
36 posted on 10/13/2002 5:41:46 PM PDT by Wolfstar
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To: general_re
As you know there are two grand theories/ Either civilizations developed independently or one was inspited by another. Of course the gentleman who wants to think that Egypt had priority even in the case of ancient Greece is trying to save his racial pride. But we live in a fascist age, where the past is fodder to present need. Poor old Columbus gets it in the neck, because it is easier for our elite classes to throw the indians this bone than to confess that the BIA has systemarically looted the income from Indian lands. Of course, I am not totally indignant about that because I know if the money had been turned over to the nstional leadership,s THEY would have looted it. Racial politics is a bore.
37 posted on 10/13/2002 6:35:52 PM PDT by RobbyS
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To: PatrickHenry
The Articles were drafted in July 1776, same month as the Declaration. Not much time for getting input from too many sources.

Albany Plan of Union was drafted in 1754. Plenty of time to use it for input for the Articles.

38 posted on 10/13/2002 7:37:48 PM PDT by dark_lord
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To: dark_lord
Well, it may have been looked at. Perhaps they gathered a copy of every historical confederation they could locate, just so they wouldn't overlook anything. That makes sense. During the drafting of the Constitution, a dozen years later, I recall reading that Madison lectured the convention on the merits and weaknesses of confederations and constitutions through history, including the Athenian League, the Swiss system, etc. So the same kind of scholarship could have gone into the Articles too.

But when we look at the finished product, I strongly doubt that the Indians had anything even remotely resembling the Articles of Confederation.

39 posted on 10/14/2002 3:36:28 AM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: Tancred

www.suntimes.com

Back to regular view
http://www.suntimes.com/output/letters/cst-edt-vox14a.html

Let's celebrate an American hero

October 14, 2002


The drums will roll, the bands will strut and politicians will court the rapidly eroding ''Italian vote.'' It is Columbus Day 2002!

Mayor Michael Bloomberg invited ''The Sopranos'' sellouts Dominic Chianese and Lorraine Bracco to the New York City Columbus Day Parade. Our own Mayor Daley would never consider inviting James Gandolfini or Edie Falco to our parade. They mock their heritage and defile the memory of their heroic Italian ancestors. Mayor Daley loves Columbus Day, and always salutes the accomplishments of the great ''admiral of the Ocean Sea.''

Christopher Columbus was adopted as an ethnic hero after waves of Italian immigrants brought their blood, sweat and tears to the teeming shores of this ''sweet land of liberty.''

They found other ethnic groups honoring St. Patrick, Casimir Pulaski and von Steuben, so they needed to join the parade. Columbus is not celebrated in Italy. Only a small plaque commemorates his birth in Genoa. He was discovered in America by a needy population of penniless and powerless immigrants searching for their place in the sun. Even our nation's capital bears his name. Cities and universities proudly proclaimed to be his adopted children.

Christoforo Colombo was an authentic American hero. Then the marauders came in the night and rained lies on our parade. Charlatan historians revised, distorted and finally destroyed the well-documented legacy of Columbus.

The Joint Civic Committee of Italian Americans will salute ''America, To Thee I Sing'' today. Look at the list of war casualties from the Twin Towers. The melodious, beautiful names of Italian Americans are tragically prominent in the roll call of heroes: citizens, police, firemen--none of whom resemble any characters in ''The Sopranos.''

President Vito Cali and parade chairman Robert Cimo speak for the Italian-American community as they invite all Americans to celebrate and remember Columbus Day 2002. Let the healing begin.

Dominic Di Frisco, president emeritus,
Joint Civic Committee of Italian Americans


40 posted on 10/15/2002 3:59:56 PM PDT by ppaul
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