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IRS Confesses Tax Code Incomprehensible (ASTOUNDING Admission by feds)
U.S. Treasury Department ^ | Oct. 8, 2002 | Pam Olson

Posted on 10/10/2002 8:00:44 AM PDT by Middle Man

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To: EternalVigilance; ancient_geezer; *Taxreform; Bigun
LurkeyLooneyLiarLou has never, to the best of my knowledge, ever suggested that the Liberal/Socialist/Marxist Bastard's Un-American, Communist inspired (it is the Second Plank of the Communist Manifesto), progressive income tax be changed or abolished.

All LooneyLiarLurkeyLou is capable of is vapid criticisms and snide comments absolutely devoid of any substantive ideas worthy of debate or comment.

IOW, LurkeyLooneyLiarLor is a DISRUPTOR, probably a paid Demoncrat operative sent here to create hate and discontent. Best we ignore anything and everything he/she says.

21 posted on 10/11/2002 10:00:27 AM PDT by Taxman
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To: Taxman
Even "DISRUPTOR"s, can serve the purpose of keeping an important thread alive :O)
22 posted on 10/11/2002 10:29:03 AM PDT by ancient_geezer
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To: ancient_geezer
Thass the only good thing you can say about Louie!

23 posted on 10/11/2002 1:03:38 PM PDT by Taxman
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To: Middle Man
deliver world class customer service to America’s taxpayers.

Taxpayers are customers!? HA HA. But, they can't actually say what the true relationship is; IRS is overseer, Congress and Prez are slavemasters, and the taxpayers are all slaves. they're thrown scraps in the form of "targeted cuts" or tuition credits or something every now and then to keep them grateful, content, and obedient. This is the long-term plan almost at fruition.

24 posted on 10/11/2002 10:28:47 PM PDT by MichiganConservative
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To: MichiganConservative; *Taxreform
Dr. Alan Keyes in an article published in the March 2002 issue of American Legion magazine entitled The Injustice of Income Tax and subtitled Income tax usurps privacy, allows the federal government to control income and paves a path to tyranny:

We ought to have realized that the income tax is utterly incompatible with liberty. It is actually a form of slavery. A slave is someone the fruit of whose labor is controlled by somebody else. A slave is not somebody with nothing. Rather, he has only what the master lets him have.

Under the income tax, the government takes whatever percentage of the earner’s income it wants. The income tax, therefore, represents our national surrender to the government of control over all the money we earn. There are, in principle, no restrictions to the pre-emptive claim the government has upon our income.

No American government has seriously pressed this claim on our income to its logical conclusion – the explicit demand that all income be handed over to the government and any private expenditures made subject to government approval. But we are deeply unwise to underestimate the power of the confiscatory principle in the hands of a government determined to pursue its advantage. The federal government could bankrupt the country in short order, merely by deciding to insist more aggressively than it already does on collecting the money we have already agreed it has the right to take. We must insist on the erection of constitutional protection, beyond the reach of any congress or president to override, of the fact that American citizens own the dollars they earn. Without such protection, we hold these dollars merely subject to the government’s revocable permission.

The income tax is a slave tax. As the excerpt from Dr. Keyes article clearly demonstrates, as long as we slaves follow the rules, we will not get whipped. And the rules are intentionally obscure -- who among us can possibly file an income tax return and believe they have followed all of the rules?

If you are as mad as I am about the very existence of this evil, Marxist inspired Internal Revenue Code (IRC) and the corrupt agency which selectively enforces it (and enslaves us all), please consider becoming an active supporter of the National Retail Sales Tax (NRST).

The two NRST bills introduced in this Congress(H.R. 2525 and H.R. 2717) will replace the income tax with a NRST and abolish the IRS. Consider carefully what that would mean in terms of restoring a significant measure of your personal and economic FReedom.

There are many other benefits to be realized from the NRST, but gaining the personal FReedom to work, save and invest without the greedy hand of the government "Massa" stealing the fruits of one's labor, IMHO, is the most significant.

Just as Lincoln freed the slave during the Civil War, we are working to free the slaves (US!) in the 21st Century.

We Americans are faced with a stark problem: we either destroy the IRC/IRS monster or the IRC/IRS monster will continue to enslave and eventually destroy us.

“I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.” [Thomas Jefferson, letter to Benjamin Rush, 1800.]

We will never be a truly FRee people so long as we have the income tax and the IRS.

Click here to help us scrap the Code, scrap the IRS and abolish the VLWC!

We will never be a truly FRee people so long as we have the income tax and the IRS.

You can also click here to sign a petition in support of Fundamental Tax Reform.

We will never be a truly FRee people so long as we have the income tax and the IRS.

25 posted on 10/12/2002 6:46:29 AM PDT by Taxman
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To: Middle Man
The IRS is a privately owned collection agency for the privately owned Federal Reserve!
26 posted on 10/12/2002 6:51:58 AM PDT by jslade
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To: jslade
Refer: Tax Protesor FAQ, IRS

Section 7801(a) of the Internal Revenue Code states that the administration and enforcement of the Code shall be performed by or under the supervision of the Secretary of the Treasury. Section 7802(a) then says that there shall be a Commissioner of Internal Revenue in the Department of the Treasury who shall have such duties and powers as may be prescribed by the Secretary of the Treasury. Finally, Section 7803(a) of the Code states that the Secretary is authorized to employ persons for the administration and enforcement of the Internal Revenue Code.

Acting under these laws, the Department of the Treasury has adopted regulations creating the Internal Revenue Service, of which the following is a part:

"The Internal Revenue Service is a bureau of the Department of the Treasury under the immediate direction of the Commissioner of Internal Revenue. The Commissioner has general superintendence of the assessment and collection of all taxes imposed by any law providing internal revenue. The Internal Revenue Service is the agency by which these functions are performed." Treas. Reg. Section 601.101(a)

Faced with the claim that the IRS is not an agency of the United States government, the courts have reached the obvious conclusion:

"It is clear that the Internal Revenue Code gave the Secretary of the Treasury full authority to administer and enforce the Code, and the power to create an agency to administer and enforce the tax laws. Pursuant to that legislative grant of authority, the Secretary created the Internal Revenue Service, so that the IRS is an agency of the Department of the Treasury, created pursuant to Congressional statute." Snyder v. IRS,

"Plaintiff attempts to circumvent this conclusion by arguing that the IRS is 'a private corporation' because it was not created by 'any positive law' (i.e., statute of Congress) but rather by fiat of the Secretary of the Treasury. Apparently, this argument is based on the fact that in 1953 the Secretary of the Treasury renamed the Bureau of Internal Revenue as the Internal Revenue Service. However, it is clear that the Secretary of the Treasury has full authority to administer and enforce the Internal Revenue Code, 26 U.S.C. § 7801, and has the power to create an agency to administer and enforce the laws. See 26 U.S.C. § 7803(a). Pursuant to this legislative grant of authority, the Secretary created the IRS. 26 C.F.R. § 601.101. The end result is that the IRS is a creature of 'positive law' because it was created through congressionally mandated power. By plaintiff's own 'positive law' premise, the, the IRS is a validly created governmental agency and not a 'private corporation.'" Young v. Internal Revenue Service, 596 F.Supp. 141 (N.D.Ind. 1984).

See also, Cameron v. IRS, 593 F.Supp. 1540, 1549 (N.D.Ind. 1984).

"We perceive no need to refute these arguments with somber reasoning and copious citation of precedent; to do so might suggest that these arguments have some colorable merit. The constitutionality of our income tax system-including the role played within that system by the Internal Revenue Service and the Tax Court--has long been established." Crain v. Commissioner, 737 F.2d 1417 (5th Cir. 1984), (responding to, among other things, a claim that the "Internal Revenue Service, Incorporated" lacks authority).

"Salman's argument that the Internal Revenue Service is not a government agency is wholly without merit." Salman v. Jameson, 52 F.3d 334 (9th Cir. 1995). (Salman has now been enjoined against filing any other lawsuits against the IRS or the United States. See Salman v. Jameson, 97-1 USTC ¶50,452, 79 A.F.T.R.2d ¶97-2667 (D.Nev. 1997).)


27 posted on 10/12/2002 9:30:23 AM PDT by ancient_geezer
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To: ancient_geezer
Yup!
28 posted on 10/12/2002 11:09:13 AM PDT by Taxman
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To: *Taxreform
And, the way for us to regain our FReedom from the slave tax is to elect Representatives, Senators and a President who will work with us to repeal the 16th Amendment to the US Constitution and abolish the IRC and the IRS.

Along the way, we MUST dis-elect some Representatives and Senators.

I'd urge each and every one of you to ascertain the position your Representative and Senator (and the candidates for those offices) hold re: fundamental tax reform. And if they favor keeping the Marxist progressive Income Tax Code and the IRS in place, work actively to ensure their defeat.

We can do this, but we need your help. You can start by registering to vote and then voting for a candidate who stands clearly on the side of the We the People.

And you can work with us in the next Congress to abolish the IRC and the IRS. Go here or here to find out how you can help.

“I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.” [Thomas Jefferson, letter to Benjamin Rush, 1800.]

We will never be a truly FRee people so long as we have the income tax and the IRS.

Click here to help us scrap the Code, scrap the IRS and abolish the VLWC!

We will never be a truly FRee people so long as we have the income tax and the IRS.

You can also click here to sign a petition in support of Fundamental Tax Reform.

We will never be a truly FRee people so long as we have the income tax and the IRS.

29 posted on 10/12/2002 11:29:18 AM PDT by Taxman
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To: Taxman
Unfortunately for the income tax doesn't apply to me folks, the courts don't agree. When push comes to shove, it's those courts who are going to decide the issue in the final analysis for them.

The only sure way to avoid the income tax is to repeal the statutes and replace it with a better less onerous and less intrusive system.
30 posted on 10/12/2002 12:00:43 PM PDT by ancient_geezer
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To: CobaltBlue
The IRS doesn't write the law, Congress does. Pray for a Republican congress after the election, and we may finally get some reform.

Not entirely true. The IRS's lawyers write large sections of the tax code based upon legislation committee meetings and final law language. Very few in Congress understand the language of the tax code. Even with the Republicans, it's the same old stuff.

Policy is so integrated with the tax law that I just don't see the tax code becoming much simpler.

31 posted on 10/12/2002 1:38:26 PM PDT by irish_lad
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To: ancient_geezer
Next time you get a chance, get a canceled check you wrote to the IRS. Look on the back of it. Clearly, endorsed over to a Federal Reserve Bank, not the Treasury Dept.
32 posted on 10/12/2002 1:50:37 PM PDT by jslade
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To: irish_lad
The hardest part about the tax code is reading it, and the hardest part about reading it is putting all the sections side-by-side because (picking numbers at random here) 412 references 411 but 411 doesn't reference 412. It's a quagmire.

Well, actually the hardest part is paying the taxes, nobody likes that. But we gotta do it.

So, wish they'd make it easier to figure out. I am a lawyer, had a couple of tax courses in law school, do my own taxes, but not for anybody else. No, no, no.

I don't trust anybody to do mine because if they screw up I am the one who is liable. So I use Quickbooks and TurboTax and that seems to work pretty good.

33 posted on 10/12/2002 1:59:04 PM PDT by CobaltBlue
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To: jslade
Yep, interesting how the government uses a private bank as a repository for receive funds. And your point is?

Last time I looked at it the government also sells treasure bonds to that same private bank to create monetary reserves as well.

Now how does either make the IRS a private entity, as it is very clearly an agency under the Treasury department by act of Congress?
34 posted on 10/12/2002 2:36:07 PM PDT by ancient_geezer
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To: jslade
P.S. my bank does the same thing with checks I submit to it for deposit only without my endorsement them.
35 posted on 10/12/2002 2:42:46 PM PDT by ancient_geezer
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To: jslade

Next time you get a chance, get a canceled check you wrote to the IRS.

Statement from the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas concerning the Federal Reserve Sytem and what it is in real terms:

Independent Within Government. The Federal Reserve System was structured by Congress as a distinctly American version of a central bank, established to carry out Congress’ own constitutional mandate to “coin money and regulate the value thereof.” The Fed is a decentralized central bank, with Reserve Banks and branches in 12 districts across the country, coordinated by a Board of Governors in Washington, D.C.

The Fed has a unique public/private structure that operates independently within government but not independent of it. The Board of Governors, appointed by the president of the United States and confirmed by the Senate, represents the public sector, or governmental side of the Fed. The Reserve Banks and the local citizens on their boards of directors represent the private sector. This structure provides accountability while avoiding centralized, governmental control of banking and monetary policy.

The Federal Reserve is fiscally independent because it receives no government appropriations. The Fed funds its activities with the interest earned from loans to banks and investments in government securities and from the revenue received from providing services to financial institutions. The Fed’s financial goal in providing services is to generate only enough revenue to cover costs. Any excess earnings—money made above the cost of operations—is turned over to the U.S. Treasury.

Refer Federal Reserve Act & shareholders of the Federal Reserve.

You would rather have a nationalized bank, owned and exclusively controlled by the government? I caution you to think of how well the post office runs and that an aspect of facism is subservience of private enterprise to government edict and centeralized control.

36 posted on 10/12/2002 3:37:12 PM PDT by ancient_geezer
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To: Middle Man
Since the government will not slit their own throats and reverse their constitutionally repugnant usurpation of Americans' inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness through a quagmire of smoke, mirrors and faulty interpretation and uneven enforcement of immoral statutes, possibly the best course in the short term is for millions and millions of Americans to simply wise up, ignore the IRS, become better equipped to defeat the tactics of the IRS, and defang the beast by refusing to engorge it? Overwhelming protest would force the government to respect Americans and the constitution that has been trampled upon. There aren't enough resources now to prosecute tens of millions of wise and emboldened 'sheep' and the government couldn't create a new scheme of prosecution fast enough to do so anyway. The only way tyrannical government is defeated is by revolution, and no shots need be fired. Flame away...
37 posted on 10/12/2002 4:14:09 PM PDT by ApesForEvolution
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To: CobaltBlue
I agree 100%. Thank God for Turbo Tax!
38 posted on 10/12/2002 7:42:52 PM PDT by irish_lad
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To: ApesForEvolution
"There aren't enough resources now to prosecute tens of millions of wise and emboldened 'sheep' and the government couldn't create a new scheme of prosecution fast enough to do so anyway."

One reason these astonishing statements are coming from the government is they realize the jig is almost up.

During the 1997 hearings that led to the IRS Restructuring and Reform Act, co-chairman Sen. Bob Kerry said in a USA Today interview: "It's a voluntary system. If people don't perceive it to be fair, people will not voluntarily comply. We are struggling to maintain ground on voluntary compliance."

What that translates to is: "The sheeple are waking up and we are losing our ability to extort the income tax from them, like we have for the last 50 years!"

39 posted on 10/13/2002 8:06:06 AM PDT by Middle Man
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To: CobaltBlue
"...the hardest part is paying the taxes, nobody likes that. But we gotta do it."

Whenever I read a poster who says something along the lines of "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's", "You can't fight city hall" or "The only certainties in life are death and taxes", I immediately think: Vested interest in current system. It's usually a CPA, lawyer or government employee.

As a lawyer (if you are in reality a lawyer), you should know that Americans pay a plethora of federal taxes besides the "income" tax every day. Off the top of my head, I pay federal taxes every time I fill up my gas tank, pay a phone bill, purchase alcohol, fly on a commercial airliner, etc., etc. There is hardly a facet of life anymore that is not taxed in some form or fashion.

To say that Americans have to pay the "income" tax because "we gotta do it" is pretty, well, unlawyerly.

40 posted on 10/13/2002 8:26:38 AM PDT by Middle Man
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