[Orion]

Several points...

First, unless you are familiar with the airline industry, your assertion on the relative unionization of a particular company is rather shakey. I am in the industry, and am very familiar with union acitivity in the industry. Southwest is the most unionized airline in the USA. The fact you imply otherwise, based entirely upon wages, demonstrates that you are operating from the standard anti-union template so common at FR.

So, unless we strike, we are pussies? OK, staging a fake strike (whatever that is) is against the law. Striking is entirely legal, so your point was?

Please tell me, whose lives have I sworn to protect? How do I risk them by staying at home? How do I jeopardize my passengers without killing myself? Honestly, do you even think about what you are saying?

Yes, striking is bad for the corporation. Yes, that is quite a bit of leverage the union holds. So, given that reality, and legal entitlement, why not have the corporation replace us? I will tell you why not - United 1985. Ferris tried to break the union - no luck. He ran his airline into the ground, and they are still paying for it. That is the reality. There is plenty of competition, as if we raise the bar too high, our company, and our seniority and our careers are done. With a 30 year career being worth $10M, we do not take that lightly. Starting over at another airline would cost each pilot over $5M. Again, think before you post.

There is no bargaining? The last contract that American Airlines signed with their pilots was negotiated for almost 4 years, and what did the pilots do? A 20 minute strike in the middle of the night. Most of America slept through it. When was the last time AA was on strike? 1959. Yes, that is one strike every 40 years - a real national crisis if I have ever seen one.

You actually believe that the present working conditions of union and non-union workers was achieved by Congress? If so, is that good? You didn't like when I refered to statists, even though I never called you a statist, but with that statement, what conclusions could I possibly draw?

Unions do nothing good? No possible way? Tell me, the biggest news story of the past 13 months have been 4 hijackings and 3000 dead Americans. Your POTUS proposed a massive gov't buerocracy to deal with the problems. My union proposed arming pilots. POTUS, FAA, DOT, ATA, and airline management all opposed the idea. It was the union representing the pilots of American Airlines that first proposed arming pilots. ALPA, the union that represents all other airlines than Southwest, FedEX, and UPS had its leadership come out against arming pilots. That was Duane Worth, the chairman of ALPA reacting to his friends in Washington. Once the APA (AA's union) proposed this, the rank-and-file of the ALPA just about ripped Worth's head off and he changed his mind. It was the APA that lobbied Congress for arming of pilots against the wishes of the FAA, corporations, and the POTUS. That pressure caused Congress to pass the legeslation by better than 2/3 in both houses. GWB, saw the changing wind, moistened his finger and came out in favor of such an idea.

If we were doing what the gov't, corporations, and the early Congress wanted, there would be no defense against another hijacking. The union, and only the union, changed all that.

Guess who wants pilots on duty for 24 continuous hours? That's right the corporations. Guess who wants a hard 16 hour day? - the unions. Guess who has proposed every major safety innovation in the airline industry in the past 50 years? Not management, that is too costly. It was the unions. Believe it or not, the management of each airline works closely with, and in partnership with the unions on most issues that face the airline. Dealing with one voice is easier than 14000 voices. Obviously, the compensation package is adversarial, but many of the structures of the union are welcomed by management. Both AMR and APA want a strong American Airlines. AMR would like to do gut the pilot contract for a temporary gian, and the pilots do not want that.

Keep in mind that strong employees are good for America. I've been in an environment where management was supreme and the worker bees did what they were told or thrown in prison. When your boss tells you to violate the FAA regs, common sense, and endanger yourself and your crew, just so he looks good for his boss, it should not be difficult to see where a subordinate should be able to be protected from such incompetance.

stat'ism, n. Concentration of economic controls and planning in the hands of a highly centralized state government.

stat'ist, n. OF, pert. to, or advocating statism.

I am not the one advocating the gov't take control of the situation and imposing working conditions and pay. The ILWU contract has expired. This is just as much management's fault as if they allowed the contracts for electricity to expire, or allowed their dock licenses to expire. The fact the ILWU is trying to get another contract should not be shocking. If they don't want to pay the ILWU, get other workers. There are 1,000,000 mestizos that would love those jobs. No excuses.

[discostu]

Here's what I know about Southwest: everybody I know that flies HATES the company and their service is generally considered worst in the industry. Most of the folks in the industry I've talked to (I'm a chatty fellow when hanging around killing time, especially with the new security regs, figure being friendly with the people just might keep the rubber gloves away from my behind, so far so good) had their first airline job at Southwest and couldn't wait to get out and actually earn some money. In every other industry I've looked at the company that pays least is unionized least, I've seen no evidence saying the airline industry is immune from that standard. If you've got the evidence present it, if you're just going to insist you're right because you said so don't waste our time.

The fact is blue flus and slowdowns ARE strikes, they're just strikes done with a quibling over the definition of the word "is" so the strikers can say they're not breaking the law. Strike or don't strike, don't pussyfoot around with creative definitions of ways to deliberately and en mas not do your job but not really strike.

OK you're a pilot, recall this conversation first started talking about cops and firefighters, who have sworn to protect the common citizens. Pilots just have the job of keeping America moving, which is important too. And frankly pilots make some pretty good bank and if you dig travel have a pretty cool job (I hate to travel, another reason I try to be friendly with staffers, don't want them thinking my grumbling is aimed at them). The no negotiation mandatory retirement kind of sucks, but golly gee no union has tried to do anything about that.

See, since there's plenty of competition you don't NEED a union. That's what free market capitalism isall about: the individual negotiates his compensation with the employer and if the employer won't pay the employee what he thinks he's worth the employee can go someplace that respects talent. Everybody but Southwest is in the toilet so the problems at United aren't necessarily caused by union busting.

Maybe you should think before YOU post. Why would switching airlines cost the pilot money? Because the CBA sets the payscale based largely on seniority with the airline. If you could negotiate your own salary based on skill and experience, and get raises based on merit rather than tenure, switching airlines would NOT defacto lose you money. Once again the union not only hurts the employer but the employee. Thanks to that CBA you're stuck with your current airline.

Good, the airline unions are almost sane. But here's the question: what did that 20 minute strike, and all the stress leading up to it, actually get YOU? And what has it done for American Airlines? Did they really sign onto a deal you guys couldn't have gotten without striking, and was that deal actually good for the company? And remember before answering those questions that American is one of the airlines burning money and dangerously close to death and paying a little less for labor just might have helped them out.

Who outlawed child labor? Who set the 40 hour work week? Who sets standard safety conditions in the workplace? All Congress. Sure labor leaders lobbied Congress and that helped, but there didn't have to be unions to have people lobbying Congress on behalf of labor.

Hey look at that, Southwest came out against the thing your union is for, so much for "most unionized". Other than that, nice story, we'll see what actually happens. Having a bunch of armed out of work pilots who managed to force companies that no longer exist to let them be armed is a hollow victory. No matter how you slice it you still have the problem of unions pricing labor beyond profitability. As for the other things on your list, again you could have a lobbying organization without a union. All the "good things" in the world don't mean jack if the companies can't survive.

Sorry, from what I've seen strong employees are HORRID for America. They've priced most of the non- and semi-skilled jobs to the point that companies flee the country in droves. They drive up our cost of living. And any side by side comparison of the products of American union shops to the products of foreign non-union shops shows our stuff is inferior with lower durability and higher continuing cost of ownership.

I'm not advocating the government take things over. I'm advocating that employees negotiate their compensation individually with employers. The fact that the union has pushed this situation to the point that if the government doesn't intervene we'll be starting the 2nd Great Depression by the end of the year isn't my fault. If they would behave in a reasonable manner, not demand insane wages and not block technological improvement to the workplace none of this would be happening. The union made this situation. It is directly affecting both interstate and international commerce, both of which are clearly under the pervue of the federal government according to the Constitution. Nobody forced these guys to hold the entire American economy hostage for more coffee breaks.

Oh that's so cute, after all that garbage you posted about what happend to United "because" they tried to break the union you then say the docking companies should go ahead and break the union. Which one of your statements do you actually believe, they can't both be true. Of course again I've sen what happens when people try to cross the picket line. These mestizos might love these jobs if they had a reasonable chance to get to work and back without being beaten by picketers, but they don't. I've seen the riots, I've seen the beating, I've seen the sudden "rash" of DPS officers killed during traffic stops. You don't just hire replacements to break a union. And of course once the companies and the union sign the new CBA the company will no longer be legally allowed to hire non-union employees until the CBA expires. The union defends it's position through the courts (statist behavior) and through violence. Maybe you've never seen that because your union is basically suit and tie guys, but these are physical laborers and I know what kind of stuff "magically" appears when somebody tries to cross picket lines run by physical laborers. If people try to cross this line people will be killed, mark my words.