Backwards.
Posted on 09/24/2002 2:09:34 PM PDT by BlessingInDisguise
No, what I said was correct. The socialists usurped the word libertarian.
From Webster's:
The entry for libertarianism gives: libertarian \li-ber-ter-e-en\ noun (1789) 1 : an advocate of the doctrine of free will 2 a : a person who upholds the principles of absolute and unrestricted liberty esp. of thought and action b cap : a member of a political party advocating libertarian principles libertarian adjective libertarianism \-e-e-ni-zem\ noun
socialism \so-she-li-zem\ noun (1837) (also:socialist \so-sh(e-)list\ noun (1827)) 1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods 2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state 3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done
Note the dates, 1789 precedes 1827. Also note that Webster's fails to give an accurate definition of a libertarianism. Libertarianism is not a person, it is a philosophy and it does not hold that, thought and action should be absolute and unresticted. There are limits as they've been posted here and it is proper for govm't to impose them.
I wouldn't waste the spit on the likes of you.
So now you are against the avenues for redress of grievances and our Second Amendment Rights as well?
"To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws." -- John Adams
Angry nutjobs threatening a revolution if the voters continue to reject their cult philosophy has nothing to do with "redress of grievances and our Second Amendment Rights."
From Webster's:
cult \kelt\ noun often attrib [F & L; F culte, fr. L cultus care, adoration, fr. colere to cultivate more at wheel] (1617)
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); esp : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usu. small group of people characterized by such devotion cultic \kel-tik\ adjective cultish \-tish\ adjective cultishly \-le\ adverb cultishness \-nes\ noun cultism \kel-ti-zem\ noun cultist \kel-tist\ noun cultlike \-lk\ adjective
Is conservatism a cult also?
Backwards.
Your suggestion is false.
"It is agreed by those who have seriously considered the subject, that no individual has, of natural right, a separate property in an acre of land, for instance. By an universal law, indeed, whatever, whether fixed or movable, belongs to all men equally and in common, is the property for the moment of him who occupies it, but when he relinquishes the occupation, the property goes with it. Stable ownership is the gift of social law, and is given late in the progress of society."
--Thomas Jefferson
For the sake of the site, I recommend more weeding and less posting.
I can only conclude that the "P. Coltrane" part of Roscoe's name got chopped off by the software.
"Prescription is the most solid of all titles, not only to property, but, which is to secure that property, to government. They harmonise with each other, and give mutual aid to one another. It is accompanied with another ground of authority in the constitution of the human mind-- presumption. It is a presumption in favour of any settled scheme of government against any untried project, that a nation has long existed and flourished under it. It is a better presumption even of the choice of a nation, far better than any sudden and temporary arrangement by actual election. Because a nation is not an idea only of local extent, and individual momentary aggregation, but it is an idea of continuity, which extends in time as well as in numbers and in space. And this is a choice not of one day, or one set of people, not a tumultuary and giddy choice; it is a deliberate election of ages and of generations; it is a Constitution made by what is ten thousand times better than choice--it is made by the peculiar circumstances, occasions, tempers, dispositions, and moral, civil, and social habitudes of the people, which disclose themselves only in a long space of time."
-- Edmund Burke
"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them."
--Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356
"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere."
--Thomas Jefferson to Abigail Adams, 1787.
"The late rebellion in Massachusetts has given more alarm than I think it should have done. Calculate that one rebellion in thirteen states in the course of eleven years, is but one for each state in a century and a half. No country should be so long without one. Nor will any degree of power in the hands of government prevent insurrections."
--Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1787. ME 6:391
No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
---Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution, 1776.
Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive.
---Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787).
Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man gainst his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American...[T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.
---Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.
The whole of that Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals...[I]t establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of.
---Albert Gallatin to Alexander Addison, Oct 7, 1789, MS. in N.Y. Hist. Soc.-A.G. Papers, 2.
New discoveries flowing from Roscoe's Law ("If it appears on the cover of a book, that proves that it exists in the real world.")
war is peace
falsehood is truth
The truth will not change simply because someone promotes it as falsehood. Note that socialists, communists and anarchists are opposesd to free will. Are you capable of intelligent thought and comment of your own? If you are, in your own words, explain how folks opposed to free will would promote it.
The subject has been lost to the detriment of the site. Another chat room has been created, and the beat goes on.
The only way one can be both at the same time, is for one to VOLUNTARILY join some collective or commune. Such a venture would be founded on a VOLUNTARY contract between the participants.
You might notice a shortage of such individuals, because most libertarians have a personal dislike of collectivism.
Because government is inherently the use of force, the moment government becomes involved in the least bit (outside of enforcing VOLUNTARY contracts), such a venture ceases any claim to libertarianism. Such people could still say they're libertarians, but then I could claim to be a fire hydrant, and RINO's can still claim to be conservatives.
(BTW, I emphasized 'voluntary' because it's the essential difference between libertarianism and big C Communism, and I have a sneaky suspicion you'd ignore it otherwise)
Manifesto of Libertarian Communism, by George Fontenis, 1953
When was the "Libertarian Party" formed?
"A right to property is founded in our natural wants, in the means with which we are endowed to satisfy these wants, and the right to what we acquire by those means without violating the similar rights of other sensible beings."
--Thomas Jefferson to Pierre Samuel Dupont de Nemours, 1816. ME 14:490
"[We in America entertain] a due sense of our equal right to... the acquisitions of our own industry."
--Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural, 1801. ME 3:320
"He who is permitted by law to have no property of his own can with difficulty conceive that property is founded in anything but force."
--Thomas Jefferson to Edward Bancroft, 1788. ME 19:41
"The political institutions of America, its various soils and climates, opened a certain resource to the unfortunate and to the enterprising of every country and insured to them the acquisition and free possession of property."
--Thomas Jefferson: Declaration on Taking Up Arms, 1775. Papers 1:199
"By nature's law, every man has a right to seize and retake by force his own property taken from him by another by force or fraud. Nor is this natural right among the first which is taken into the hands of regular government after it is instituted. It was long retained by our ancestors. It was a part of their common law, laid down in their books, recognized by all the authorities, and regulated as to circumstances of practice."
--Thomas Jefferson: Batture at New Orleans, 1812. ME 18:104
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