***The Giza Power Plant: What Was Behind The Door***

Stardate: 0209.21

[The Wizard]

For those of you who just can't stomach the nonsense they try to tell us about the Great Pyramid, welcome home. If I had my way every child in school would have to learn what Chris Dunn teaches us about the world; yes, that's right, about the world.

The lesson is more profound than the Great Pyramid, because it shows us 4 disturbing things, conculsively:
1. We've been lied too for decades about what happened in Egypt, the tools they had and how they accomplished the many things they did
2. That a great civilization existed and has since perished, and that we need to be careful about what we accept as fact: common sense HAS value.
3. That we have yet to reach a technology that was once possesed here on earth thousands of years ago.
4. That many things told to us as facts, are not.

This is a tremendous book, and I wish I had the ability to put it on TV at 8 pm at night and draw the attention to it that it needs, because mankind will take a giant leap forward when that finally happens.

[RightWhale]

it was much more common to devote individual lives or entire segments of populations to accomplishing tasks

Some people still do that. It's not so common in our short-attention-span society, but there are dedicated individuals. Not talking about becoming Nerevarine in Morrowind, but about slogging through math and becoming a physicist or engineer. But there is no Pharoah to make people concentrate their efforts, it's an individual effort and the only reason we make progress as a group.

[RightWhale]

McDonald's could do it

Absolutely. Except not many customers would drop by Giza to pick up a bacon cheeseburger, so Mickey might have a cashflow problem.

[discostu]

That kind of brings up something I think about from time to time. I think one of the big things missing from the American psyche right now is a grand project. For most of the 20th century (actually starting in the 19th, ending with the moon landing) America did all these really cool things really for no reason other than we could. We built huge bridges and tall buildings and carved our presidents' faces in a mountain all because we were America dammit. And if there's one thing missing from the modern era of this country it's that idea that we're America dammit. Then come the chicken and egg discussion: did we embark on these great projects because of national pride, or did we get that national pride because of these great projects? I think the only way to answer that question is to develop a great project, but what? If you could hammer through the appropriations and permits to build any grand structure, intending it to be the autograph of this generation on America ala the Golden Gate Bridge or Empire State Building or getting a man on the moon, what would it be?

[RightWhale]

You know I would build a permanently manned base on the moon and begin mining asteroids. However, we are entering an era of war and that will consume all our energy for many years. As soon as the war is over, and Americans begin to feel like Americans again, then I would immediately begin exploring and colonizing out into space as the #1 national priority.

Outer space is America's destiny. Not Russia's destiny, not China's or India's or England's destiny, America's destiny.

[discostu]

I'm not sure war is a good excuse for not doing a big project. The greatest era for these structures was the Depression (Golden Gate, Sears Tower, Empire State and Mount Rushmore), we always seem to be able to scrape up the resources when we need them (because we're America dammit, see how that works). Permanent manned base on the moon is pretty cool. I've always been partial to suspension bridges, I'm just not sure we actually need anymore... of course that never stopped us before. Here's something that would really piss off the tree huggers: a suspension bridge over the Grand Canyon, at it's widest point of course. Space is important though.

[MHGinTN]

200 x 2000 is a bit larger than 3 x 2000. Do you know if the materials available in ancient Egypt would have been viable in a scaled up block and tackle required to move 200 tonnes? Would block and tackle scale up to handle such a load? Calculate the coefficent of friction for different surfaces upon which to drag a 200 ton block. The engineering is, on the surface, simple enough, but when you start to deal in the specific difficulties to be addressed, noone yet can prove how the feat could have been done with the known technology of ancient Egypt.

[discostu]

It probably wouldn't have handled 200 tons scaled up, most woods don't maintain a nice curve of strength increase with size increase (like twice as big isn't usually twice as strong). Luckily they didn't have to. I just provided that example to show what a pulley can do (if you've ever looked in the elevating section of a crane you can see the pulley system that's doing all the work, admittedly these are much better pullies than the Egyptians had to work with, but it's a conceptual thing, what can a pulley accomplish). The biggest estimates I've seen for pyramid blacks was 80 tons, and that was just for some of the base blocks. The general concensus is most blocks were in the 2 to 3 ton range. The fun thing with pullies though is the different ways you can configure them, you can lay it out so multiple pullies share the load. If you set up for seperate pulley systems united only by pulling the same block they each will only be hauling 1000 (we'll take low end estimates for ease of math) pounds. Or if you've got the manpower you don't even need pullies. If you connect 10 ropes to 1 block and put 4 people on each rope each person is hauling 100 pounds, each rope gets 400. That's not an outrageous load, heck in by youth when I worked fast food I'd carry 100 pounds of meat upstairs every morning setting up for transition to lunch.

The biggest problem becomes friction on the ground/ ramp. Gotta have some sort of wheel or roller or lubricant, especially when on the ground, that sand can be really annoying stuff. Gotta avoid the drag that will dramatically increase the effective weight of the stones. But there are very low tech solutions to that: logs, water, grease.

[Dan Day]

The biggest problem becomes friction on the ground/ ramp. Gotta have some sort of wheel or roller or lubricant, especially when on the ground, that sand can be really annoying stuff. Gotta avoid the drag that will dramatically increase the effective weight of the stones. But there are very low tech solutions to that: logs, water, grease.

It's also possible to strap wooden or stone "cradles" to the giant blocks which in effect "round them off" temporarily, at which point you can just roll them up the ramp with almost zero friction by running a rope or ropes down the slope, under the block, up the back side, over the top, and then back up the slope. Pull on the top of the rope, and the block simply rolls nicely up the ramp.

Discussed, and with pictures, here

[discostu]

Make the whole block a wheel, painfully obvious when you think about it. Now you're no longer dragging the object but rolling it. Anybody that's ever push started a car knows how little effort it takes to roll a heavy object. Most cars weigh around a ton and take 2 people to push, 3 people and you can get 'em going without any serious effort. Scaling our math a 2.5 ton block should take 5 people to push around, maybe add two people for awkardness (since the whole thing is a wheel rather than being suspended on 4 wheels). All of a sudden that theoretical 20,000 slaves can move 2857 blocks at a time.

The more you look at this stuff the easier it gets. Like all physical labor it's all about cheating. That's why we invented things like pullies and gears and these sled looking things in the first place: to cheat and make things easier.

[The Wizard]

no offense but the process you're talking about doesn't work with blocks this big....I have personally watched today's machines try to cut and move 20 ton blocks and it just ain't do-able.....you have to actually see these stones to realize how ludicious some people's comments are.......(we don't cut stones this big, when we need something like this we build it in place like a foundation)

And I mean no offense, but go to a construction site, or talk to a crane operator and find out first hand what their limitations are.....I can't quote exact tonnage, but it ain't 20....

Then let's say you could lift it, just for the sake of argument....you ain't gonna lift it up 400 feet or so to a point that is smaller than the base /\....you just have to go look for yourself and you'll see two things....the great pyramid wasn't built as any tomb, and we still can't build it today....ask someone from Jersey in construction......he'll tell you.....

[discostu]

Wiz I gave you 4 links, including one from you're own guy, showing that the blocks are only 2 tons, not 20. Drop the extra zero. And if you clicked his link (another site that confirms they're 2 tons) you'd see them doing it. Also check the Hoover Dam, generators in excess of 200 tons, moved with a crain. You're off in lala insisting stuff can't be done that has been done and sticking to a rock size that nobody else agrees with.

[Dan Day]

no offense but the process you're talking about doesn't work with blocks this big....

Because.... why?

I have personally watched today's machines try to cut and move 20 ton blocks and it just ain't do-able.....

Because.... why?

you have to actually see these stones to realize how ludicious some people's comments are.......

Because.... why?

(we don't cut stones this big, when we need something like this we build it in place like a foundation)

Excuse me?

Quarry which "routinely" produces 50-ton granite blocks and lifts them with wooden derricks It also mentions that blocks as large as 100 tons which don't meet standards are removed and piled "nearby".

Sculpture made from a 22-ton block of granite, which was transported and carved in 1937

Description of moving 12-ton blocks of granite in 1903 using horses and wagons

1900-ish photo of workers with 50-ton granite block

People carve solid granite boat from 35-ton block, sail it

50-ton block used to make enormous teddy-bear sculpture

Quarry owner discussing how, "We regularly move blocks of several hundred tons. First we remove the biggest stones from the quarry face, then we cut them down to size. We produced the obelisk that now stands at our embassy in Vienna. It's about 14 meters (46 feet) and weighs about 40 tons. "

Statue of sculptor, sculpted from 30-ton block of granite

photo of 80-ton block of marble being extracted from a quarry

Quarry describing 55 ton block of marble they sold (in 1931), recent 58 ton block, and a planned 75-ton block

Sculpture cut from a single 750-ton (!) block of marble

People routinely work with blocks that big, or bigger. Where on earth did you get the idea they don't?

Earlier you said, "I have personally watched today's machines try to cut and move 20 ton blocks and it just ain't do-able" -- I have to ask, just what sort of incompetent stonemasons were you observing, anyway?

Finally, the "Tomb of the Unknowns" in Arlington National Cemetary is a solid 50-ton block of marble, moved into place in 1931.

And I mean no offense, but go to a construction site, or talk to a crane operator and find out first hand what their limitations are.....I can't quote exact tonnage, but it ain't 20....

Oh, you're right -- it "ain't 20", it's 250-300 tons. "No offense"...

Of course, that's just for the self-propelled, wheeled/tracked construction cranes. Cranes erected on-site can carry even larger loads.

Then let's say you could lift it, just for the sake of argument....

Um, yeah, let's...

you ain't gonna lift it up 400 feet or so to a point that is smaller than the base /\....

...because why, again?

you just have to go look for yourself and you'll see two things....the great pyramid wasn't built as any tomb, and we still can't build it today....ask someone from Jersey in construction......he'll tell you.....

Right... After a heavy bout of drinking, he'll admit it was the space aliens...

Look, the pyramids are impressive, but they aren't *that* amazing.

Plus, the majority of the blocks in the Great Pyramid are in the 3-6 ton range. Only a few selected stones (like the roof of the burial chamber) hit the 20-ton size. And even those aren't that huge.

Contrary to the desires of some people to make this a "woo woo, supernatural" engineering feat, what you seem to forget is that there are a hell of a lot of contemporary accounts of the construction of such enormous ancient structures, along with countless leftover tools, quarry sites complete with rejected and/or screwed up blocks, etc.

Check this out for some education. Along with a lot of other interesting items, you'll see an Egyptian drawing of, lo and behold, a crapload of people dragging a big stone sculpture, complete with ropes, lubricating liquids to reduce friction, and sticks used as levers on he backside. Not a UFO in sight...

[Dan Day]

Ping. I think you'll appreciate my reply to "Wizard"

[editor-surveyor]

"What did the power plant power?"

Would you believe a key-chain flashlight?

[Aurelius]

BUMP

[Aurelius]

BUMP

[Aurelius]

So, you are over here doing what you are best at; creating and spreading misinformation.

"The Egyptians didn't have a ball point pen handy so they created the Pyramid to calculate pi with."

So they spent 20 or thirty years building it? Don't you think that they could have devised a simpler means?

Actually all of this nonsense about the ratio of the height of the pyramid to the perimeter of the base being twice pi is easily dispensed with by anyone with the least familiarity with the classics. And I am amazed that you, given the intimate knowledge of classical Greek that you have claimed on another thread, would not be aware of this.

Get out your Herodotus (in the original Greek, the relevent passage is consistently mistranslated into English). Look at Book II, #124, in which Herodotus gives the dimensions of Cheops' pyramid and the design principles that led to the relations between its dimensions. He says that he was told that the dimensions were chosen so that the area of a triangular face of the pyramid would be equal to the square of the height of the pyramid. With a little elementary geometry and algebra you easily find that this yields the ratio that is found of the height to the perimeter of the base, i.e., about 6.28. That that number coincides with twice pi is pure coincidence.

[The Wizard]

dan, thanks for making my point......while I wasn't sure of the total tonage that can be cut and moved many of you links showed that today, we can move large blocks.....while I didn't bother to open all links that you provided I appreciate your time......

The links prove that the technolgy we are told did the job could not have

[discostu]

Actually Wiz they prove exactly the opposite, check the very first link. They do it with WOOD. The only thing technology has really effected when it comes to moving rocks is the size of the system you need to move the stuff. With modern materials we have single pullies that can pick up 200 ton blocks. With older materials you'd need to setup a more complex pulley system that would spread the load over multiple pullies. We still use the same basic techniques, we've just replaced a whole lot of wood stone and rope with a steel pulley and some cabling. Any look at the history of pulies shows that the basic design has remained consistent for as far back as we have samples (which BTW includes pyramid era Egypt).

[Phaedrus]

Bump THIS! It's time we stopped listening to the arrogant, ignorant, self-serving "experts". Yes, read the book -- it's excellent! A great many minds need opening.