Three Minute Discrepancy in Flight 93 Tape

Philadelphia Daily News ^ | Sept. 16, 2002 | William Bunch

[Gunrunner2]

'Nuff said.

Thread is over.

My prayers are with you.

God speed.

[NELSON111]

Bull they wouldn't know...I'm in the Air Force and work with aircraft...WE WOULD KNOW! You account for every ROUND in the gun...even more for every aim-9 loaded on the wings. The weapons loaders would know...the pilots would know...the OG would know...the VC and the CC would know. The people at the depot would know when you ordered the replacement.

I am not going to argue what happened because it does not matter. HOWEVER, I'm not so sure you know too much about the nuts and bolts of operations but when you say they would not know...you have NO idea what you are talking about. There would be two pilots that know...air traffic controllers (because they would see the break up...or at least hear FOX 1 on the mike). When the aircraft came home, there would be ground crews that would notice the AIM-9 gone from the wingtip...and so would the loaders and the fuelers...so there is about a dozen people right there. Believe me...that would spread amongst the ground crews ASAP...so now knock that number up to a hundred or so. THe commanders of the weapons and the ops...finally the wing commander and staff would know. Lots of people.

Do not know yell "BECAUSE THEY WOULDN'T F*****G KNOW!!!!!" because when it comes to how the ops are going...you obviously don't know. It wouldn't be just the guy that fired the missile...but lots of people.

[Ferris]

Here's an entire article about it and the conversation with Cheney reported on Meet the Press...

Was Flight 93 Shot Down?

Comment: In the end, Flight 93 was ONLY 15.6 minutes away at 500mph (speeds from 400 to 600 were reported) from D.C. when it crashed.

Think about this - in order for us to NOT have intercepted Flight 93, fighters would have had to wait until nearly 10am before turning towards it. The 3 fighters (take your pick) that arrived over D.C. at 9:40am proceeded to do something else over D.C. for 15+ minutes WHILE we were well aware of an incoming Flight 93, then mercifully, finally turned toward Flight 93 and made 5-10 minutes progress - which puts them 60 miles out.

That is the Government position - and I think it's either untrue or the Air Guard failed to react as they apparently can now - within 9 minutes we are now able to intercept any aircraft according to Air Guard statements after 9-11-01. Considering 3 nuclear power plants were between Flight 93 and D.C., this failure is totally frightening. I'd like to think they got a fighter there. Wouldn't you?

2 F-15's were scrambled at 8:45 and arrived at the WTC about 9am. Why were the jets that responded BEFORE any crash so quick by comparison to the jets that responded AFTER 2 Towers had been hit?

Federal investigators said on Thursday that they have not ruled out the possibility that United Airlines Flight 93 was shot down over Pennsylvania, after three other hijacked airliners crashed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon
http://investor.cnet.com/investor/news/newsitem/0-9900-1028-7147291-0.html

After the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, President Bush gave the military orders to intercept and shoot down any commercial airliners that refused instructions to turn away from Washington, Vice President Dick Cheney said Sunday.

"I wholeheartedly concurred in the decision he made, that if the plane would not divert, if they wouldn't pay any attention to instructions to move away from the city, as a last resort our pilots were authorized to take them out," Cheney said on "Meet the Press."

Bush was in Sarasota, Fla., at the time. Instead of returning directly to Washington, Bush was shuttled to Air Force bases in Louisiana and Nebraska before returning to the capital.
http://www.nandotimes.com/special_reports/terrorism/attack/story/80165p-1118358c.html

Another plane was in the area with no markings...
http://video.ibsys.com/popup.cfm?contentid=958495&owner=pit&site=c4k (videos were taken off line - but this was a local news media crew on the day of the crash))

But if United Airlines Flight 93 had not crashed in Pennsylvania, the three North Dakota-based F-16 pilots from Langley two of them commercial airline pilots themselves may have faced the nightmarish decision of whether to shoot down the commercial airliner, along with its 38 passengers and crew of seven.

"It kept us from having to do the unthinkable," said Maj. Gen. Mike J. Haugen, adjutant general of the North Dakota National Guard, "and that is to use your own weapons and own training against your own citizens."

The military has not allowed the pilots to be interviewed, and The Times has agreed not to print their names because of security concerns. But details of their activities on the morning of Sept. 11 have emerged through interviews with other Guard officials.

At 9:30 a.m., six minutes after receiving their orders from the
defense sector, code-named Huntress, three F-16's were airborne, according to the Norad timeline.

Then the pilots received the most surreal order of the awful
morning. "A person came on the radio," General Haugen said, "and identified themselves as being with the Secret Service and he said, `I want you to protect the White House at all costs.' "
Tuesday October 16 12:06 AM EDT
'We Have Some Planes,' Hijacker Told Controller
By MATTHEW L. WALD with KEVIN SACK The New York Times

Comment: Again, authorization was given while Bush was in Florida and after the first two crashes which puts it at 9:15 to 9:35 latest. Remember, the first fighters were airborne before 9am. Flight 93 went down at 10:10am. Why can't we interview the pilots... heck, they weren't even in the area. Right? Yea, right. They were airborne at 9:30. These F-16's had seen the Pentagon on fire, needed to protect the White House at all costs and had the OK to fire by 9:45 at the latest.

"VICE PRES. CHENEY: Well, the--I suppose the toughest decision was this question of whether or not we would intercept incoming commercial aircraft.

"MR. RUSSERT: And you decided?

"VICE PRES. CHENEY: We decided to do it. We'd, in effect, put a flying combat air patrol up over the city; F-16s with an AWACS, which is an airborne radar system, and tanker support so they could stay up a long time...

"It doesn't do any good to put up a combat air patrol if you don't give them instructions to act, if, in fact, they feel it's appropriate.

"MR. RUSSERT: So if the United States government became aware that a hijacked commercial airline[r] was destined for the White House or the Capitol, we would take the plane down?

"VICE PRES. CHENEY: Yes. The president made the decision...that if the plane would not divert...as a last resort, our pilots were authorized to take them out. Now, people say, you know, that's a horrendous decision to make. Well, it is. You've got an airplane full of American citizens, civilians, captured by...terrorists, headed and are you going to, in fact, shoot it down, obviously, and kill all those Americans on board?

"...It's a presidential-level decision, and the president made, I think, exactly the right call in this case, to say, "I wished we'd had combat air patrol up over New York."
--NBC, 'Meet the Press' 16 September 2001

Read about the mystery white jet if you haven't already.

Bottom Line - if it was shot down, would it have come down in a ball of flames? Witnesses report a largely intact aircraft coming down. Ground debris indicates the plane coming apart before impact. Hmmm.... on the military FAQ page I talk about stuff that probably belongs on this page - like cannon fire and the Nashua Air Traffic Controller that saw an F-16 hounding Flight 93 on radar.

From an email I received:
Someone close to me was involved in the improvements of air to air missiles after Vietnam war and various weapon systems during the cold war (primarily on the target tracking part and not explosive part) but he does not believe any air to air missile has the ability to blow a 757 to pieces. The mission of the missile is not to destroy the airplane, but to simply render it out of service by destroying its target's power plant or disrupt its flight. This way, the missile can be agile and fast. If missile was fired it would simply hit one of the two engines on 757. But given the size of the aircraft, it would remain in flight for a short period of time.

Comment: 2 Russian air to air missiles brought down a Korean 747 in 1983. That aircraft had cockpit voice recordings by the crew for two more minutes after the sound of the first explosion was heard. This verifies that a 747 (which is larger than Flight 93, a 757) would not be destroyed in the air when struck by a Russian air to air missile.
http://aviation-safety.net/cvr/cvr_ke007.htm

  You can find lots' more info on the website http://www.flight93crash.com/

Pics, info on debris fields, etc...

Do you think it is even possible in the realm of existence that the plane was shot down???

[going hot]

Facts, facts, you are ruining dialogue with presentation of facts.

Shape up and tow the line!!

[BigBobber]

There is a much simpler explanation. One of the hijackers had a bomb strapped to his body. The passengers reported this in phone calls. When the hijackers were rushed by the passengers the bomb was set off. This explosion caused the debris found far from the the main crash site. The plane, still largely intact, then went into a fatal dive.

This explanation takes nothing away from the heroes of Flight 93. However, the government would rather not tell you about the bomb because they still have no way to adequately screen for them.

[Walkingfeather]

It was shot down. The debris feild is over miles rather than a few hundred yards. It does not deminish the heroics of the passengers the stinger just knocked down the aircraft before the the passengers could take over. That's it. They took the best opprotunity in the sparsley populated area of PA. That is it. Why they covered up is just a matter of War time propaganda. It serves the country more to have the heros take down the plane. The administration will get forgiveness later as ..." we didn't know what we were in so yes we lied.... " People should not be upset that they have. It doesnot change a thing of the bravery of Beamer and the others.

[FourtySeven]

The main thing you have to understand about the federal government is that, like all psychotics, it would rather tell a lie than the truth, even when the truth would work better than the lie.

I guess that says it all doesn't it? I was just about to ask you and others on this thread why exactly the U.S. Gov't would shoot down a plane and lie about it when, as even you say, it could only benefit them more to tell the truth in such a circumstance.

But now we know for certain. The U.S. Gov't is psychotic; thanks for the update there, that's good information to know as I continue to live my life in this country. Just knowing that the government is a totally evil and corrupt organization (or is it JUST psychoitic?) brings a warm and fuzzy feeling to my heart.

Thanks EPU! You must be a joy at parties too!

[Maringa]

I'm glad Chris was able to set things straight...I can't imagine myself being in the room listening to those tapes...It is something I hope I never do. For some of the conspiracy people depicting the spread out debris field, I find it funny that people would rather believe the US shot down the plane rather than the terrorists themselves blowing up a bomb knowing that their mission was about to fail.

[Gunrunner2]

Agreed.

[Ferris]

There is a much simpler explanation. One of the hijackers had a bomb strapped to his body. The passengers reported this in phone calls. When the hijackers were rushed by the passengers the bomb was set off. This explosion caused the debris found far from the the main crash site. The plane, still largely intact, then went into a fatal dive.

This is also a possibility...

About the only you CAN count on is this...

However the government says it went down is exactly the way it didn't go down...

[KC Burke]

While it is hard not to be irritated about an issue with which you have such detailed and intiment knowledge, don't let the "alternate theories" on this forum cause you to cast it aside if you otherwise find kindrid souls here.

It is part to the nature of exposing corruption and decifering media distortion and spin to see that some of these see the light of day. Long term forum readers see them for what they are: Alternate Theories, even when they are presented by some that are heavily invested in their prominance.

Without such free wheeling critical thinking and investigation, much of the scandals of the Clinton era, the Democrat Party and the Gore Election Attempted Hijack would be completely undiagnosed.

Thanks for your first hand account and rest assured in the certain knowledge that the sacrifice of your loved one and his fellows will be acknowledged by all that read our country's history and value its future.

[SoCal Pubbie]

I think I speak for the majority of us here on this forum when I apologize for those of us who's critical thinking skills are somewhat intellectually challenged and hope that no hurt or offence has been caused by their wild speculation regarding the facts of this crash. To demean the great sacrifice of the brave souls who stuck the first blow in the war on terrorism and discount their efforts by insisting that they were cut down by their own country's government in the face of all the facts to the contrary is despicable and disgusting.

[smith288]

I thought the Fighters were unarmed and were going to "ram" it if they had to?

[SoCal Pubbie]

I am not now nor have I ever been in the military, but even I could figure it out, and had intended to post comments similar to yours, but you expressed the thoughts with greater authority than I ever could. It's obvious that personnel would overhear the order to fire, notice the missing ordnance upon return to base, and discover forensic evidence of a shootdown on site. The number of people "in on it" would be staggering!

[dpa5923]

Good post. You handled that with more patience and maturity than I would have. Good job.

[AppyPappy]

Do you think it is even possible in the realm of existence that the plane was shot down???

Here is your answer:

It kept us from having to do the unthinkable," said Maj. Gen. Mike J. Haugen, adjutant general of the North Dakota National Guard, "and that is to use your own weapons and own training against your own citizens."

Sounds to me like he is saying it didn't happen.

[Ferris]

I thought the Fighters were unarmed and were going to "ram" it if they had to?

Mmmmm, don't know about that one...

Doesn't make much sense though...

Why would f-16's launched to intercept the plane go up without ammo??

[NorthGA]

I would more suspect the terrorists of trying to fly the plane into a target (crash) rather than just crash the plane anywhere by pulling circuit breakers.

Were circuit breakers pulled on the planes that hit the WTC?

[jalisco555]

Facts, facts, you are ruining dialogue with presentation of facts.

I know, I know. Usually when I have the urge to add facts to these discussions I lie down until it passes. Forgot to do that this time ;-)