Lots of "silver" sold in stores is actually steel.

Chapman article Gold-eagle ^

[BlackJack]

After reading about Brian who checked Wal-Mart, Bells, a pawn store and a Jewelry store and finding that their "sterling" was attracted to a magnet, I went out yesterday and did the same thing. I went to the Richardson Square Mall in Richardson, Texas. I bought a magnet from Sears and went on my journey. First stop was one of those Kiosks called the Silver Mine.

Should have been called the steel mine. Anyway, all of the "sterling" I tested was magnetic except one of the smallest chains. Every heavy piece was magnetic. The vendor insisted it was sterling and said I was wrong.

Next stop, Kay Jewelers (Big chain), They sell a line they claim is sterling and is treated so it will never tarnish. One 18" chain was $160.00. All of it was magnetic. The store manager said that he knows for a FACT that it is sterling. I asked him if he saw it manufactured? He said no. Then I said "You can't then know for a fact." Unless he had it assayed. He still insisted it was sterling and wanted me to go away. Off to Zales. They don't sell silver.

Next to Bellini Jewelers. This is not a chain. The owner was there. I tested his one flat of "sterling" silver chains and all but one were magnetic. He was indignant that I told him his chains were not sterling and was very belligerent. He insisted that he would continue selling the chains as sterling so long as he bought them as sterling silver.

He wanted me to go harass Kay Jewelers because they were bigger than he was. I asked what that had to do with it? He didn't answer. I told him I would contact the authorities. Next to Sears! They had lots of "sterling", about 60% was magnetic. The area manager was very concerned and would bring it to the store manager's attention. I researched this issue on the Web and found lots of stuff.

To summarize, to be called "sterling" in the U.S.A., the piece must be 92.5% silver. However, all references I could find only listed copper as the other alloy. One said zinc but a jeweler friend I talked to told me that zinc would boil off at the temperature it takes to melt silver.

So, there we have it! Massive quantities of "silver" that is NOT SILVER in the stores. It must be tons and tons all across the country. This is unbelievable! What disgusts me the most is that three out of four vendors insisted the chains were silver when the magnetic properties were staring them right in the face!

What a massive fraud! Now we know what is supplying the 110 Million silver deficit, steel! What a huge scandal! Where are the regulators that so many of the sheeple trust? I am going to buy a magnetic sterling chain and have it tested. I'll let you know the results. Send the army out with magnets, let's test the world!

[Gorzaloon]

Nickel is also a nice silvery color, and doesn't tarnish easily. Some of the pieces you looked at were probably either nickel or silver-plated nickel.

Nickel alloys were outlawed years ago because a significant number of people are allergic to nickel and its alloys. Until the late'70's, white gold was a gold/nickel/copper alloy. Now it must be made with silver to "whiten" it, and resembles the old Roman "Electrum" gold/silver alloy...it is slightly yellower in color than the earlier nickel "White Gold".

The FTC has not been doing a good job lately. People are now growing "Amethyst" and "Citrine" and "Ametrine" in labs as twinned crystals. Most of the top color amethyst sold now is fake, if the color is too good to be true.

I wonder if the junk "silver" being sold is kiosks is part of a money-laundering operation?

Yes, I am profiling. Tough bananas. So sue me. :-)

[R. Scott]

Sterling silver is an alloy of 92.5 percent silver and 7.5 percent copper. Silver plate is an object made of a base metal, such as steel, that is coated with a thin layer of silver or silver alloy.
Possibly they “forgot” to add the word “plate”?
“German silver” is an alloy of copper, nickel, and zinc, and could attract a magnet.

[Great Dane]

I bought a heavy 'silver' chain in Mexico - the clasp had the "92.5" mark for sterling. I hung it in the side of my jewelery chest, but the door wouldn't close! I found the 'silver' chain sticking to the magnetic door latch!! LOL I bet this fake silver stuff is fairly new, I have silver spoons, and some silver jewelry, hubby and I tested it this morning, non of it is attracted to a magnet. :-}

[tortoise]

I was a chemistry major in college. I pulled all that information from my rusty memory of my numerous chemistry and materials engineering courses.

[Great Dane]

Thank you, this thread has turned into a good education.

[HangThemHigh]

"stainless steel is magnetic contrary to your belief. Also be advised that the way to find out if your brass objects are all brass or just plated is also with a magnet"

I stand corrected. The austenitic stainless steel I am used to dealing with in the chemical industry is not magnetic. Other types of stainless steel (martensitic and ferritic) are magnetic.

Around my household I found my pots and stainless ware are not magnetic, whereas my SS Walther PPK/S is magnetic.

[Bernard Marx]

Someone is passing off (my bet) silver plated stainless steel (the Chinese?).

The truth probably has more to do with ignorant salespeople than any willful deception. The U.S. labeling laws on precious metals are confusing, to say the least. It's news to most people -- including some 'jewelers' -- that the government requires no quality stampings at all on precious metals. What it does say is that gold and silver jewelry carrying a quality mark must also carry the registered trademark of the person or company responsible for the guarantee of quality.

That means it's perfectly legal for me to sell jewelry with no quality stampings at all on it. But if I make a ring of 18 karat gold and stamp it 18K or .750, it's illegal for me to sell it without putting my own trademark symbol on it as well. That means if someone disagrees with the purity I've stamped, I'll be the person legally responsible to guarantee the quality. Most commercial jewelry is clearly stamped with both the quality mark and trademark information but a few craftspeople still sell unstamped hand-made items.

There is no requirement at all that silver or gold-plated jewelry carry a mark. I have a few cheap plated chains in the back room and just checked them with magnification and found no marks at all on them. So the only way someone could break the law by passing off "silver plated stainless steel" as silver would be if they stamped it "Sterling" or "925."

So maybe the best safeguards for jewelry customers would be a jewelers' loupe to read purity/trademarks stampings, and dealing with jewelers who know their business and are ready to stand behind their products. Mall kiosks? Maybe not.

[mamelukesabre]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "traditionally", and how far back in history you want to refer to.

German silver is called german silver because it was invented in germany. It's first use was to make silverware(knives, forks, spoons). You see, silverware that is made of solid silver is not very strong and you can bend it easily if you are bearing down on a tough piece of steak or something. The germans, being clever and crafty people, figured out that if you add some nickel to the silver, it becomes much stronger. So they started making silverware out of this nickel-silver alloy, and then coating it with silver. This way, you had the attractive appearance of silver, and the strength of nickel silver.

Well, as time went on, they figured out that an alloy of copper and nickel had the same strength as an alloy of silver and nickel, so they started using copper in place of the silver to save money. I know for a fact that nickel-silver alloy did indeed contain silver AT ONE TIME. I also know that as recently as WWII, they were still putting a "token" amount of silver in nickel silver alloy just so that they could, in good conscience, continue to call it "nickel silver alloy". Obviously in today's business world it would be economically stupid to put silver in it. Nowdays, nickel silver alloy basically just a high grade brass or bronze. I forget which and what the difference is.

Oh, here's an interesting bit of trivia for you. If you own some old silverware that has the silver worn off and the german silver is showing through, you should not use it. When german silver is exposed to vinegar, it gives off small amounts of a toxic substance that can make you sick.

[mamelukesabre]

You seem to be knowledgeable in this field. I have a question for you that no one seems to know the answer to.

In the bridge building industry, there is a structural steel known as "weathering steel". This is steel "I" beams that do not need to be painted. This steel will rust untill the surface is coated with dark rust and then it is sealed from the atmosphere and will rust no further, similar to the way aluminum does. I have asked lots of people in various fields what this stuff really is and how it compares, metalurgically, to stainless and no one seems to have a clue. My suspicion is that it is somewhere in between structural steel and stainless steel...sort of an economical version of stainless. Structural steel has to be cheap to produce because so much of it is required to build something with.

Have you ever heard of this kind of steel?

Also, since I'm on the subject, here's another question for you. What's the difference between mild steel and boiler plate? Is there a difference in the metal composition, or is it just the shapes that it is molded into that are different?

[Bernard Marx]

If you have a reference that substantiates what you're saying I'd love to know about it. I've done a pretty thorough Google search and have checked all of my 10-pound reference books. They all agree: there never has been any real silver in German silver alloy except the silver used to electroplate its surface -- a very tiny amount overall. It was originally made from copper slag in Henneberg, Germany. It's widely used for inexpensive flatware and holloware, so the dangers from exposure to vinegar must be pretty minimal.

I'm very familiar with Sterling silver's properties because I've fabricated and cast silver jewelry for years. My personal Sterling silverware set has knives with stainless steel blades that cut steaks very well, and handles that are filled with plaster or lead for 'heft.' Sterling has been used as tableware for centuries and I'm sure base metal knife blades were used in earlier times. It was adopted as a standard alloy in England in the 12th century when King Henry II imported refiners from an area of Germany known as 'Easterling.' The consistent 92.5% fine silver product they made was designated as English currency as early as 1300 when it was known as 'Easterling silver.'

I agree the Germans are clever and crafty people. They are my ancestors.

[Swordmaker]

Thanks very much for the detailed info, but the discussion was about whether a pocket magnet would stick to it or not, and on that level my point was directed.

Then apparently you REALLY didn't mean it when you said in Reply 98 from ALS:

In truth, one could say that "stainless steel" is NOT magnetic IF it has no iron mixed in with it. Soooo.. everyone is right!

You were disseminating misinformation... apparently about something you claim to work with. I just set the record straight with authoritative facts...

Since ALL steel has IRON (Fe) in it your point was erroneous and meaningless.

[mamelukesabre]

It is sometimes interesting to see what is said in books that were printed 100 years ago or more. Sometimes they give you little snippets of info that you will not be able to find anywhere else no matter how hard you look.

The metal industry has been standardized and there really isn't any reason to go to germany anymore to get the best quality metals. At one time, solingen steel was the best in the world, but no more. It is all the same. I would guess that if you looked up nickel silver alloy in a modern reference book, you will not find anything but what the official standards specify and since those official standards are probably less than 100 years old, there won't be any indication of what the germans were doing 500 years ago. I don't recall where I got my info, but I have a set of "cyclopaedias" that were printed in the 1800s. I will look in those when I go home and see what they say about german silver. I would bet money that I will get at least a partial verification of what I stated earlier. I'll get back to you on this later tonight or tomorrow.

[Bernard Marx]

No money bets necessary...you're right that metallurgy has a long, murky and complex history. If your references bear you out, that's great -- I'm always interested in stuff like that.

The best reference I've been able to find is at http://pages.zoom.co.uk/leveridge/nickel1.html

[supercat]

Actually you can determine if something is pure (or close) silver by weighing and then measuring the amount of water in displaces in a graduated cylinder.

An Archimedes test is reliable for gold, since probably the cheapest substitute for gold that would pass would be a tungsten-platinum alloy; depending upon the price of those materials the substitute may cost more than the real thing.

Silver, on the other hand, has a density which is fairly "average"; anyone wanting to do so could easily create an alloy whose density mimicked that of silver, and given the range of allowable densities for sterling products, I don't know that an Archimedes test would likely be conclusive.

[Allrich Towing]

I'll be darned.

- Gin

[Indrid Cold]

We've noticed a few sterling chains that have come into our pawn shop are magnetic, too, and we generally turn them away, just to be safe. However, I propose a test:

Go down to Jeff n Akbar's Sterling Hut and buy a chain. Take it to a precious metals refinery and try to sell it. They'll assay it and offer you a price for it or decline to buy. If they decline it, you could have the makings of a good class-action lawsuit.

In my opinion, I find it highly unlikely that manufacturers are knowingly mis-marking their jewelry as "sterling" or "925". Silver is far from expensive, and if word got out their reputations would be ruined. I don't think there's much motive there.

If you have a chain at home that's marked sterling but is attracted to a magnet, wear it continuously. After about 6 months of continuous wear, any plating will be peeling and bubbling off.

[afraidfortherepublic]

Thanks for the interesting insight!

[afraidfortherepublic]

In the bridge building industry, there is a structural steel known as "weathering steel".

I believe you are referring to Corten (sp?) steel. It has a high copper content. It can be welded, but its disadvantage is that the red color "runs" and stains whatever is around it, whether it be rocks or ceement or paint that is adjacent to it.

[matrix]

Sterling is NOT magnetic! However, most "sterling" flatware does not include things like knife blades which are necessarily made of stronger stuff. Fork, knife and spoon handles should be sterling if so advertised.

[ALS]

you're fulla corn pooey. getta life and glasses