Posted on 09/11/2002 10:32:28 AM PDT by TomB
Edited on 04/29/2004 2:01:14 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
BEVERLY HILLS, California (Reuters) -- A man who publicly confronted astronaut Edwin "Buzz" Aldrin over whether he actually went to the moon said that the Apollo 11 hero almost sent him into space with a punch to the jaw.
Bart Sibrel, an independent filmmaker from Nashville, Tennessee, said he was trying to conduct an ambush interview with Aldrin outside a hotel in Beverly Hills when the astronaut punched him and ran away.
(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...
In other words, you have no clue of what you are talking about and are just going to blather on instead of answering my question.
Well, question answered.
On to the Apollo astronauts, who weren't very smart or even knew how to fly:
Buzz Aldrin, Ph.D:
Prior to joining NASA, Aldrin flew 66 combat missions in F-86's while on duty in Korea. At Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada, he served as an aerial gunnery instructor. Following his assignment as aide to the dean of faculty at the Air Force Academy, Aldrin flew F-100's as a flight commander at Bitburg, Germany. He went on to receive a doctorate at MIT, and was then assigned to the Gemini Target Office of the Air Force Space Systems Division, Los Angeles. In March 1972, Aldrin retired from Air Force active duty, after 21 years of service. As a USAF jet fighter pilot during the Korean War, he shot down two MIG 15 aircraft.
Neil A. Armstrong:
From 1949 to 1952, he served as a naval aviator; he flew 78 combat missions during the Korean War. During 1971-1979, Armstrong was professor of aerospace engineering at the University of Cincinnati, where he was involved in both teaching and research.
Michael Collins
Collins chose an Air Force career following graduation from West Point. He served as an experimental flight test officer at the Air Force Flight Test Center, Edwards Air Force Base, California, and, in that capacity, tested performance and stability and control characteristics of Air Force aircraft--primarily jet fighters.
He has logged approximately 5,000 hours flying time.
Charles Conrad, Jr.
Following graduation from Princeton University in 1953, Mr. Conrad entered the Navy and became a naval aviator. He then attended the Navy Test Pilot School at Patuxent River, Maryland, where he was assigned as a Project Test Pilot. Mr. Conrad also served as a flight instructor and performance engineer at the Test Pilot School. After completing his tour of duty at Patuxent River, he served as instructor pilot in F4H Phantoms on VF-121 and was then assigned duty in VF-96 on board USS Ranger.
Leroy Gordon Cooper, Jr.
Cooper, an Air Force Colonel, received an Army commission after completing three years of schooling at the University of Hawaii. He transferred his commission to the Air Force and was placed on active duty by that service in 1949 and given flight training. His next assignment was with the 86th Fighter Bomber Group in Munich, Germany, where he flew F-84s and F-86s for four years. While in Munich, he also attended the European Extension of the University of Maryland night school.
He returned to the United States and, after two years of study at AFIT, received his degree. He then reported to the Air Force Experimental Flight Test School at Edwards Air Force Base, California, and, upon graduating in 1957, was assigned as an aeronautical engineer and test pilot in the Performance Engineering Branch of the Flight Test Division at Edwards. His responsibilities there included the flight testing of experimental fighter aircraft.
He has logged more than 7,000 hours flying time--4,000 hours in jet aircraft. He has flown all types of Commercial and General aviation airplane and helicopters.
Alan Bean, a Navy ROTC Student at Texas, was commissioned upon graduation in 1955. After completing flight training, he was assigned to a jet attack squadron in Jacksonville, Florida. After a four-year tour of duty, he attended the Navy Test Pilot School, then flew as a test pilot on several types of naval aircraft.
Gee, you're right. None of them were very smart and none of them could fly, either.
That was only Apollo 11 and 12, I can post the rest if you want....
First of all, "Mamzelle" is female (note the name and the extreme case of "red-a$$" associated with her several comments about the alleged infidelity of some of the astronauts.)
Second, Mamzelle has no personal knowledge of anything about which she speaks (note the refusal to back anything up with actual data, preferring to hide behind the false concern for privacy when in fact it would be easy to provide verifiable documentation without betraying identity - we ain't really interested in who she of the red-a$$ is...)
Third, she betrays her lack of knowledge in a glaring way when she states that after Mercury the astronauts were just passengers, when in fact the opposite is true. The later missions offered the astronauts far more autonomy. It is true that most of the burns were automated because of the precise timing required - a few feet per second too fast or slow and you die. However, NONE of the moon landings were successfully automated (we tried but failed) - computers got you down to the last few thousand feet, then you flew it in - no mean feat then or now. None of the shuttle missions I was associated with ended in automated landings. They were made possible by piloting skills and large brass ones, not by computers.
My own CV: I worked as a computer operator at KSC from 1979 to 1982, I was one of the un-heralded technician/engineering types that Mamzelle feels compelled to defend. Thanks, but no thanks. I don't know anyone in that community (and it was a long time ago, admittedly) who would today agree with Mamzelle's bile. While I was there (during the buildup to the shuttle program and through the first four missions) I met several astronauts, famous and not. Some names you might know: John Young (Apollo 10 and 16) is one of the sharpest people I have ever had the privilege to meet, as were Gene Cernan (Apollo 10 and 17) Ken Mattingley (Apollo 16, I think). I don't know what they did in the bedroom, but by 1979 I never saw any groupies. They were all thorough professionals who all recognized that there was a certain level of public relations associated with their very-high profile jobs. All the ones I met seemed to hate the rubber-chicken dinners and speeches. In those days virtually all the astronauts were ex-military pilots. Some, like Gene Schmitt, were scientists. No one expected the scientists to be fighter-jocks, although in those days they all learned to fly the T38.
Buzz Aldrin was a fighter pilot in Korea, and an astronaut with two missions in space. If I had that career and you harassed me and called me a liar and a thief, I would respond as Dr. Aldrin did, too.
Bottom line: Mamzelle comes across as a scorned woman, not a knowledgeable commentator. And, way to go Buzz.
So, yes, kudos to the Buzz Aldrins, but let me say thanks to you as well - those of us who bother to think about such things know how important each and every member of the team is in an undertaking as massive as a mission to space...
I don't think the technicians and engineers felt in any way resentful of the astronauts. We all knew that the astronauts were the top of the food chain. So what. It was exactly the same hierarchy as in the military services, where most of the astronauts and the engineers and techs came from. We all knew that we weren't the ones who would die if something went wrong, they were. We also said to ourselves, every day, "It won't fail because of me!" It was the first time I worked with a group of people who took their work so very personally, and I was inspired: "It won't fail because of me, by God!"
I never saw any affirmative action astronauts there - they got the job because they were exceptionally good at it. They were also intensely competitive, detail-oriented, obsessively hard-working peoople. For this reason, many marriages suffered. But I have seen marriages suffer because of work loads in many situations, not just at KSC.
Thank Congress, and then JFK in that order. And congrats to the generals and soldiers who actually did the slogging.
Preferably by an all woman crew. Oh, mayby not, wouldn't be much left.
Notice only the career jockeys made your list, makes me wonder if all this is just a way for a hobby pilot to keep the image of the Holy Pilot burnished. But that'd be a personal remark, wouldn't it-- An ad hominem from the Woman Scorned, as the nasty preceding mysoginist felt it necessary to put it? Dare to point out that the pilots could be real self-promoting jerks, and the personal insults fly from the very Manly Men who demanded other personal information about me.
Does anyone know if Aldrin was sober or drunk on his butt when he punched out the nutcase? Since that isn't likely to appear in the Nasa press releases you eat up, but he used to be very fond of the sauce. Supposedly he's been off it. Also did a long stint with therapy, and of course managed to ruin a marriage (I happen, silly woman that I am, to have more respect for a guy who holds a family together than all fellows who trample on kids and wife in an ego-frenzy like most of the astronauts did). After he straightened himself out, Aldrin did the Oprah-style confessionals here and there. Amazing how many of these guys fell completely apart post-flight, the second the adreneline wore off. Is that also a sign of the True Aviator Hero? Just meek little Mamzelle, Woman Scorned, wanting to know.
You implied that they couldn't fly, when most were accomplished combat or test pilots.
You said they did what the "engineers" told them to do when they were engineers themselves, and spent time at the production facilities as the components were being built.
You claim that they didn't fly anything during the missions, when all the dockings and landings were done by hand.
You've done nothing but gossip like a little old (and nasty) lady.
It sucks to have someone call you on your lies, huh?
While not a woman scorned directly by a few of these jerks, I sure did know some. Not just women, but little girls and little boys Scorned. Homes scorned. Common sense scorned. Modesty and honor, scorned. Faith and community, scorned. All in pursuit of their little false god of temporary glory and fame. All for that gratifying moment of being the Big Shot--a fleeting gratification, indeed, which explains the downward incline post-flight.
And, Defend the Second, it's more than can go unanswered to watch a public cooing and back-slapping over some of these selfish jerks without noting that they were only the Public Relations veneer (inadequate and false at that) under which the true accomplishment lay.
Once again, you have no support for you vile allegations. Funny I don't recall anybody denying Aldrin had alcohol problems after returning to earth. Many people thrust into the limelight suffer the same fate.
Now please, at least tell us how they docked and landed on the lunar surface by only "pressing a few buttons".
Umm, wow. Mamzelle, you were just plain wrong in a number of ways about the value of astronauts to the success of NASA missions. You were wrong about their degree of control over their own fate while in space. You were wrong about the intelligence and education of these men. You were wrong about the integrity of these men.
Each of us will form his or her own opinion as to the relative merit of a person based on a variety of impressions. My own were formed by a combination of just the kind of hero-worship you condemn, and from my personal experience. When I began working in the NASA environment I was pre-disposed to like the astronauts, no doubt. I was quickly educated about how many other fine people supported the flight crews and I had great respect for them as well. What you seem to miss is none of us were in awe of the astronauts. They were regular folks who worked hard, drank beer, cracked jokes, and took pleasure in puncturing stuffed shirts, just like everyone else.
Some had personal problems, messed up marriages, unruly kids, and so on. Who doesn't have problems? To me the question is: So what? Do you know who was screwing who, who cheated on who? No, you don't, any more than I did.
I never saw anyone in the Astronaut Office who believed the hype about "The Astronauts" - they thought it was BS too. They were embarrassed by it. They seemed to prefer the work environment because they could relax and let fly with the occasional "f-word" (especially the Navy/Marine Corp types...) On the other hand, they did not suffer much from self-doubt. A big ego and high confidence were requirements for the job. I never held that against them.
One more point about your many bitter posts. You say: Pilots are manly men among men, endowed by their joysticks with inherent honor (unnecessary to earn it), and this is key. In that environment NO ONE receives un-earned honor, from astronauts to computer operators. If you screwed up there were lots of people who would point it out, no matter who you were. Respect was earned every day. You did your job well or you were gone.
So, unlike your condescension about trampling my illusions, you are the one who suffers from the illusion. You take the personal failings of a small group of people (I believe you only cite one: Aldrin) and use this to condemn the tremendous achievements of a much larger group. All of the criticisms you have heard from those on this site stem from that consistent and persistent error. For the record, I am not a pilot. Now that I'm in my 40's maybe it's time.
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