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Housing Bubble Deflating: Will The Us Consumer Follow?
Prudent Bear ^ | September 10, 2002 | Marshall Auerback

Posted on 09/10/2002 1:49:01 PM PDT by AdamSelene235

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International Perspective, by Marshall Auerback

Housing Bubble Deflating: Will The Us Consumer Follow?

September 10, 2002

 U.S. consumer profligacy has persisted for so long that it is has become hard to envisage what would stop it in its tracks. All traditional determinants of spending have pointed to an imminent decline in consumption, yet none of these indicators have thus far been validated by sharp declines in expenditures. A historically anomalous willingness of US households to increase their rate of debt accumulation in order to stay on a rising path of consumption has been one of the most striking features of the US economy as have come into the 21st century.

Through Q2 2002, the financial balance of the US household sector remains in its worst position since the hoarding wave prior to the Korean War. The duration, if not the depth of household spending in excess of income flows during this past business cycle, is simply unprecedented. Declining stock wealth has not curbed the consumer?s animal spirits, despite record public participation in the equity market. Nor have record high debt levels per se because it is argued that lower interest rates have served to cushion the consumer?s debt burden (even if aggregate debt service to income is at an all time high). Consumer spending has risen despite declines in the various measures of consumer sentiment, so this appears to be yet another unhelpful indicator. 

The consumer?s perverse debt-laden rush toward the cliff face has really found only one cogent explanation, which has drawn the attention of an increasingly large number of analysts ? namely, the housing market bubble and the corresponding impact of mortgage refinancings. Until recently, the persistent appreciation in house prices has enabled the US consumer to treat his home virtually like a cash point machine.  Higher valuations have enabled American households to extract increasing equity from their respective homes, whilst declining interest rates through multiple mortgage refinancings have also helped to buttress consumer expenditures by lowering their interest rate bills. This has been made possible by very low nominal interest rates and aggressive policies of mortgage finance, orchestrated through the Federal Reserve and Government Sponsored Enterprises (GSEs), such as Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac.  US fiscal policy has also been very stimulative ? in a year and a half the fiscal balance has swung by a full 5 per cent of GDP. 

But there are some crucial differences today. Evidence is mounting that housing prices are peaking (thereby diminishing the scope for further equity extraction on the basis of higher valuations), and the comparatively low existing interest rate environment means that future cuts will give the consumer less bang for his buck in terms of savings on the interest rate bill. Generally speaking, Fed funds declining from 4.75 per cent to an existing 1.75 per cent will have a much greater impact than falls from 1.75 per cent to zero. 

There is an equally germane consideration: previous refinancing booms took place against the backdrop of an expanding economy, in which the one-off boost from mortgage refinancing occurred in the context of other cumulative dynamics of economic expansion, including rising house prices. This is precisely the opposite of current conditions which pertain today. In addition to intensifying recessionary pressures (reflected by substantial falls in the equity market), we are also confronted with an environment overlaid with the imminent prospect of war with Iraq, an event that has the potential for a further exogenous shock to expenditures.  In today?s post bubble environment, the fear of default must surely be viewed as an implicit cost that is now getting factored in to household portfolio decisions, especially given the deflation of equity wealth and the increasing signs that the housing bubble is losing altitude. Thus, the long-awaited rebuild of US household savings may be upon us ? a necessary precondition for future growth, but with wrenching adjustment implications today for the American economy, given the extent to which growth has hitherto been fuelled by private household consumption and the issuance of debt.

Figures from the House Price Index from the Office of the Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight show that since 1995 house prices have risen far in excess of the rate of inflation. Over this seven year period, home sale prices have risen by more than 47 per cent in nominal terms, an amount that is nearly 30 per cent above the rate of inflation. This run-up in housing prices has translated into an additional $2.7 trillion in housing wealth, more than $35,000 per average American home owner, compared to a scenario in which house prices had only kept pace with underlying inflation.

What has this meant in terms of US consumption? There have been some attempts to quantify the extent to which the housing market has shaped consumer expenditure patterns.  According to Alan Greenspan, 10% to 15% of the rise in housing wealth is consumed whereas only 3% to 5% of the rise in stock market wealth is saved. Since US households now have almost 50% more assets in housing than equity, then the ratio is about 4.5: 1. That is, a 1% rise year-on-year in house prices offsets a 4.5% year-on-year fall in equity prices). Based on this analysis, the current 7.1% median US house price inflation offsets a 33% year-on-year decline in equity prices. More optimistic still, a 2001 NBER paper by Shiller, Quigley and Case conclude that the housing wealth effect is 11% to 17% (internationally) and 9% to 11% in the US while the stock market wealth effect was just 2% (and with no statistical significance on the regression).

This analysis would certainly help to explain why the debt laden US consumer has not yet demonstrated a greater propensity to save. Quite simply, when consumers see their own homes appreciating in value, they feel less inclination to put aside income for the future. Largely as a result of this run-up in home prices, consumption has remained high and savings rates have remained miniscule, even though all other determinants of consumption (e.g. debt, falling equity prices, etc.) suggest that the opposite should be occurring at this juncture. 

It is fascinating to us that so many people are finally ready to accept the crucial importance of housing in fuelling this buying binge. For many years, Doug Noland?s assertion that the housing market and the concomitant mortgage refinancing boom was a key, yet substantially overlooked, determinant of consumer expenditures was a hugely controversial position.  But as evidence has mounted that this has indeed been the case, it has metamorphosed into a simplistic axiom to the effect that when mortgage refinancings rise, so automatically do consumer expenditures.  And mortgage refinancings have again been strongly on the rise since July.  Does this imply that another consumption boom lies ahead?

Ironically, just as this idea has become received wisdom, there are signs that consumer expenditure is finally faltering despite the increase in refi activity. Having previously minimized the importance of such activity, most of the analytical community on Wall Street now tends to view such activity in an isolated context, failing to observe such refi activity previously was taking place in the context of rising house prices and growing employment. There are many statistical and anecdotal signs, however, to suggest that housing prices have begun to roll over: softening prices of vacation homes, lengthening of houses on the market before sale, and a substantial build-up in housing ?inventory?.  Consider the following excerpt from a Rocky Mountain News story on the Denver housing market, which is typical of many municipalities:

'For sale' signs not adding up

Record 22,910 homes available; July report was off mark by 56%

By John Rebchook, Rocky Mountain News
August 29, 2002

If you think there are a lot more homes for sale in your neighborhood than
reported, you're probably right.

A record 22,910 unsold single-family homes and town homes are on the market
this month. A computer glitch discovered this week revealed a whopping 56
per cent discrepancy from the 14,717 unsold homes reported in July.

Because the glut of unsold homes is so much greater than previously
believed, it could force sellers to lower the asking price of their homes.
Combined with some of the lowest mortgage rates in nearly 40 years, falling
prices on a huge inventory of unsold homes could make this an ideal time to
buy.

"It is, if you have a stable income," said Byron Koste, head of the
University of Colorado Real Estate Center at the Leeds School of Business.
"If you don't, you're playing Russian roulette."

In July, 20,005 unsold homes and town homes were actually on the market,
according to a calculation by a veteran real estate agent, Norm Waugh...

 While home prices are hovering at record levels, Jerry McGuire says they're
heading lower.

A report to be released today will show the average price of a single-family
home sold in August is $274,802, slightly off the record $274,904 set in
July.

Ed Jalowsky, a broker with Classic Advantage Realty, said the glut helps
explain why so many houses are languishing on the market.

"If I knew there were 50 percent more homes on the market than being
reported, I would have told my clients to lower their prices faster,"
Jalowsky said. "You have to. It's the law of supply and demand. The supply
is going up, and the demand is going down."

Waugh said it's hard to say how much of an impact the incorrect reporting of
the numbers has had on the market.

We have heard comparable anecdotes in markets as diverse as San Francisco, Tampa, and the Northeast. (To be sure, there are obviously going to be regional disparities within a country as large and geographically diverse as the US and, by extension, those regions that have not experienced anything like a housing bubble, will clearly not suffer from comparable deflationary after-effects.)  A recent report by Merrill Lynch has highlighted another risk which threatens to undercut the strength of the housing.  The report notes a surge since year end 2000 in home equity loan loss rates. Rob Parenteau of Dresdner RCM notes the ominous implications for the housing market (and, by extension, US consumption trends):

?If it becomes harder to securitize home equity loans in asset backed vehicles, banks will not be able to get these loans off these books as fast as they used to. They in turn are likely to become less willing to make home equity loans, or, at a minimum, are likely to engage in more serious credit analysis before making new home equity loans if it becomes harder to securitize them off their balance sheets. Quantity credit rationing to the household sector would be the result, which would seriously confound Chairman Greenspan's earnest efforts to sustain if not accelerate a housing bubble in the US. While it is too early to say this credit tripwire has been triggered, it bears close monitoring, since any threat to a US housing bubble is equally a threat to global economic recovery and so begs the double dip question.?

Needless to say, a consumer boom predicated on mortgage refinancing presupposes an ongoing ability to service one's mortgage. Even that is now coming into question. The percentage of first mortgage loans more than 30 days past due rose by 12 basis points in the second quarter to 4.77 per cent, the Mortgage Bankers Association of America said yesterday. The percentage of FHA loans that are delinquent rose to a record high 11.81, the trade group said. The group's quarterly survey also showed the number of home loans on which foreclosure was started rose to its highest quarterly rate ever at 0.4 per cent. That this is occurring with mortgage rates at forty year lows provides eloquent testimony to the parlous state of the American consumer's personal balance sheet.

Why have people focused so much on the refinancing issue? According to one estimate of CSFB economist, Paddy Jilek, the refinancing wave in the US could add as much $250bn to $300bn to consumers' discretionary cash flow (up from $150bn last year). At this stage, however, the more germane question is what consumers will actually do with the incremental cash. For there is increasing evidence to suggest that acute debt distress, coupled with an apparent peak in many regional housing markets, is leading to an increased propensity to save, rather than spend. Certainly, the deceleration in revolving credit growth from double digit year on year growth rates last year to near 25 year lows (around 2.5%) indicates that consumers are finally paying back debt.

Of course, one could make the contention that just as analysts underestimated the impact of mortgage refinancings on past consumption trends, so they are guilty of overestimating its impact this time around.  Mortgage refinancings give households a one shot opportunity to cash out and spend.  When the refinancing surge reverses, all things being equal, consumer spending should fall. But those optimistic about the US economy might still seek to argue that one should not necessarily view this fall as an ominous portent for future US economic growth, because in the past once the effects of such refi booms have been passed on, the economy did not collapse.

It is true that prior historical episodes with refinancing surges do not reveal immediate subsequent significant declines in consumer spending.  A recent study on US consumption by Frank Veneroso explains why:

?The Fed lowers rates and refinancings surge.  And stock prices rise.  And firms hire and employment expands. And firms need more capacity and have the profits to finance more capacity and so capital spending rises in turn.  The Fed ease that triggers the refinancing surge sets into motion the cumulative dynamics of an economic expansion. Consumer expenditures derived solely from cash outs from mortgage refinancings do abate.  But in the many other ways associated with cumulative expansions consumer incomes and sentiments are lifted and so consumption expenditures are kept on an upward path... Consumer spending growth seems to track employment growth more closely than refinancings, suggesting that the impact of the cumulative dynamics of an economic expansion impact consumer spending in large part via employment conditions.?

Veneroso highlights a crucial point overlooked by many: most mortgage refinancings in the past took place in the context of a strong economy, coupled with reasonable employment growth. Today?s current round of refi activity is happening in an economy in which the cumulative dynamics of an economic expansion are not taking place; quite the contrary in fact. Stock prices have been falling. Capital expenditure is still being cut back. Corporate profits are still falling. And (despite last week?s employment report), the trend toward higher unemployment is unmistakable. Today?s refi activity in fact looks more like a desperate attempt by the consumer to build a liquidity net egg, akin to Minsky?s description of Ponzi-finance in which one uses the flows of further debt issuance (as opposed to cash flow) to service existing borrowings. This is inherently unsustainable; clearly one cannot continue to borrow at 6.75 per cent and stick the money in savings accounts yielding less than 2 per cent. The US consumer, laden with debts taken on in the euphoria of the late 1990s, therefore remains exceedingly vulnerable to further retrenchment if these adverse trends continue.  If the urge to save replaces the consumer?s unsustainable willingness to splash out, the US recovery, indeed, much of the global recovery, will be sunk. If this occurs against the backdrop of sharply rising oil prices and a war, another global economic downturn would be all but certain.

The Japanese economy experienced simultaneous bubbles in its housing and stock markets in the late eighties. The collapse of these two bubbles has left Japan?s economy nearly stagnant for more than a decade. The United States faces the same sorts of risk from the collapse of its stock market and housing bubbles (both of which are symptoms of the larger credit bubble). The evidence suggests that it is far too simplistic to presuppose that a refinancing boom will usher in another period of booming consumption in the absence of further cumulative dynamics of economic expansion, particularly rising employment. It was poor economic policy to allow these bubbles to develop in the first place. Yet policy makers in America continue to display a curious reluctance to acknowledge past errors; they appear more interested in rewriting history to exculpate themselves. This leaves one less hopeful that the right policy mix to deal with the collapse of these bubbles will be found any time soon.

 

 

 

 



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To: Sonny M
will attempt this again http://www.daveramsey.com/ Youth resources ..simple common sense investing etc.
41 posted on 09/10/2002 8:03:05 PM PDT by fight_truth_decay
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To: LS
Is he an economist? A writer? I didn't even know Milton had a son!

He is a physicist who like to talk about economics and liberty. His prose is delightful and his arguments are compact and efficient.

For instance, here is his explaination of Congress:

You have 100 people sitting in a circle. A politician walks around the circle and collects one penny from each person. No big deal, right? Its just a penny!

Every time the politician makes lap he stops in front of one lucky person and dumps 50 cents in his lap. This fellow is overjoyed with his windfall and thinks well of the politician.

This cycle is repeated 100 times and at the end, everyone has been given 50 cents, everyone has had a dollar taken away, and everyone, is happy.

42 posted on 09/10/2002 8:10:15 PM PDT by AdamSelene235
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To: LS
I disagree. I think SS will be modified, but mostly in the form of reducing benefits after a certain age. You cannot raise taxes any more, and inflation is IMMEDIATELY picked up in the financial markets and the currency adjusted accordingly, meaning prices shoot up.

Oh really. So the cost of living has pretty much stayed the same for the last 10 years, increasing no more than a percent or two per year? Housing prices are not much higher than they were in 1990? Take a look at M3.

Anyway, deflation is the problem now.

I think gradually, the 'privatization' plan will be enacted. Americans will not turn their backs on the SS recipients, no matter how wrong or flawed the original concept.

Americans might not but the government will find a way. Deflation will make those trillions in debt even more difficult to pay back while simultaneously eroding revenues. Since there are no SS savings and there will be increasing number of people drawing upon it, it is tautological that someone will get stiffed.

It's just something we don't do---and it is a contract. So, yes, these savings do exist.

There is no contractual agreement.Legally, the government doesn't owe us spit. Social Security is part of the general fund, its just another form of income tax.

Here is a good example of "forced savings." In WW II, due to restrictions and rations, you simply couldn't spend money. So people saved, often through bonds. When the war ended, they went on a massive consumption spree. That money didn't go anywhere, even though the government had it.

That's not exactly what happened. Addressing this issue would take a while.

I'm not worried about our "manufacturing base."

Me either. Its gone. A friend of mine just moved his business to China (about the fourth person I know who has done so). He remarked upon returning that before he went he thought American's manufacturing base was dying but now he was positive that it was gone. He just couldnt get over their "can do" attitude. Even my high tech business has tired of waiting for the bureaucrats in this country to get in gear and has brought our technology to market in China first. Socialism has become so overbearing in this country that China's markets are often far more attractive. We had the freedom to implement our technology on day 1 in China. 5 years later in the US we are still prostrating ourselves before Congress, the FAA, the IRS, EPA, etc, etc.

We remain BY FAR the most productive nation in the world.

True, but productive citizens are in the minority and are increasingly mobile. Furthermore, our "education" system rarely yields the quanity of quality we need to keep this place running. Most hard core r&d firms are staffed by about 50% foreigners...Obviously, in the future they will flee to the places with the greatest economic freedom.

I question your stats on Commm China, but in places like that, they can have a "growing" GNP and have it be merely occur by throwing human bodies at production, not by adding value.

Go there..Capitalism is in the air....Once they chuck the government, step back....They won't be paying any stinking Social Security..Our high tech sector will be insulated for a generation or two but the lower tier of the economy will experience a massive deflationary shock accompanied by rising taxes and rising social security obligations.

But it doesn't help to portray the U.S. as in ANY way worse off than the ChiComs. If you look back 20 years, there were actually people making EXACTLY the same arguments you are advancing here---that our mfg. base is leaving---and some people actually said (Galbraith, for instance) that Russia might soon eclipse us.

Obviously China is not better off than the US. This isn't my point.

Russia has a 15% flat tax and the Chinese would revolt if taxed at American levels. (I've seen them forcibly remove tax collectors from their markets ...when is the last time you saw an American get physical with an IRS agent and get off scott free??).

We could instantly turn the economy around with a massive, and I mean MASSIVE, tax cut. Incentives to save can be much better too. GOvernment spending could be slashed without seriously damaging ANY major problems.

The tax cuts were more symbolic than real. But you're right massive cuts is what we need. I doubt we will ever see serious tax reform in this country short of a massive economic crisis. There simply isn't any serious opposition to Socialism.Even then I imagine the mobocratic calls for a New New Deal will win the day. I hope this won't be this the case but it seems to be a probable one.

The increased levels of spending we are seeing now are quite real. Deficit spending is simply a tax they haven't figured out how to collect yet.

43 posted on 09/10/2002 9:26:10 PM PDT by AdamSelene235
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To: Re-electNobody
All the new homes are 2500 sq.ft. monsters. It is almost impossible to find an 1800 sq.ft. home. I have always wondered what all the people who line up to buy half million dollar tract homes do for a living as San Diego is a low wage area. Am I missing something?
44 posted on 09/10/2002 9:29:34 PM PDT by willyone
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To: AdamSelene235
"just as this idea has become received wisdom, there are signs that consumer expenditure is finally faltering despite the increase in refi activity"

These idiots are using refi money to pay their mortgages and when the crash comes it's going to be a duzzy!
45 posted on 09/10/2002 10:09:33 PM PDT by dalereed
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To: LS
In WW II, due to restrictions and rations, you simply couldn't spend money. So people saved, often through bonds

The Soviets had the same system. You had lots of money, but there was nothing to spend it on. So you "saved" it. There was nothing to buy because price controls artificially set prices low which meant there was no incentive to produce and you could spend your "money" only by waiting in line for rationed goods. Eventually, the market won out and the "money" assumed its real value which was almost worthless.

46 posted on 09/10/2002 11:01:38 PM PDT by staytrue
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To: LS
in the southern Ohio (Cincinnati/Dayton) growth area, home prices have been stable for YEARS and houses sell pretty fast

Your situation is what happens in a free market situation, that is high turnover and low inflation. In your area, you have lots of flat land, few environmental regulation, and not much of a traffic problem or a white flight problem.

In many places, it is hard to develope land without paying off the politicians and doing environmental set asides. In Northern Cal, it is hard to find flat land that is not environmentally regulated or within a reasonable commute. The traffic congestion, lack of flat or environmentally unencumbered land, make land ownership more like a monopoly and we know what happens with monopolies. White flight can also add to the problem as whites will pay twice the price to not have minorities around.

47 posted on 09/10/2002 11:12:53 PM PDT by staytrue
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To: AdamSelene235
Can't disagree with you on new construction quality, but I think there's more of your - 2. for the home to be constantly repaired and improved going on than maybe you think. Look at the value of Home Depot and Lowes stock over the last several years.
48 posted on 09/11/2002 2:49:43 AM PDT by FreedomPoster
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To: Sonny M
A book that was recommended to me was: Young Person's First Book of Wealth. Click on the link. I don't have more details but it's been highly recommended by several Nestle and Pfzier executives and some of their CPA's.
49 posted on 09/11/2002 3:20:38 AM PDT by Caipirabob
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To: staytrue
I agree that in general, compared to many other areas, you are right. But you underestimate the amount of a) "white flight" from Cincinnati (HUGE); 2) the amount of regulations we have---a labyrinth, due to small, multiple counties; and OVER estimate the amount of "flat" land here. It ain't the Rockies, but I'm from AZ. THAT is flat.
50 posted on 09/11/2002 4:35:14 AM PDT by LS
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To: staytrue
You mean the money here was worthless? YOu might telling that to the hundreds of millions of people who lived remarkably fine and well-heeled lives since 1945. There was a rapid burst of inflation 1947-49, then it disappeared.

Pick up any economic history and it will tell you that the consumer boom of the 1950s was a direct result of WW II era savings. Even Robert Higgs, a Libertarian who is critical of the notion that WW II "got us out of the depression" will admit to that.

51 posted on 09/11/2002 4:37:31 AM PDT by LS
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To: AdamSelene235
Adam, on housing prices, in my neighborhood---a brand new subdivision in the rapidly growing area of southern Ohio---prices are almost exactly what they were five years ago. I don't know about 10, as I wasn't buying houses then.

The same is true for the parts of AZ where my mother lived. Housing, of course, is "location, location, location," and if you are in a hot area, prices will soar. But hot areas soon cool, unless it is prime Manhattan real estate or beachfront property.

If you think Communist China is just going to "throw off" its government and become a capitalist paradise, you are flat wrong. I don't put it past them to change governments, but that is irrelevant. Russia is the model: you cannot have 400 years of "government" that is not based on the rule of law, the sanctity of contracts, or other necessary free market practices. Simply supply and demand won't work---it's called the mob, as we see in Russia. Yes, Russia has a flat tax. I applaud them. But they need far more than that to become "capitalist."

Let me give you an example of what the Russians and Chinese are up against. In 1990 I attended a conference in Germany, just as the Iron Curtain was falling apart, with MANY leading then-SOviet economic ministers who were genuinely interested (as per Gorby's dictates) in trying to understand capitalism so they could apply it or at least appropriate parts of it.

We suggested the quickest way to get capitalism rolling was to take state-owned factories, assess their value, print stock, and give shares of stock to each worker and manager as a means of privatizing the government assets. The communist economist looked at me and said, "But you don't understand. Even if the government SAID it would do so, no one would believe it. We don't believe anything the government says." That told me what they were up against. There was NO "impartial referee" to enforce laws; no trusted regulator to ensure that a "gallon" was a "gallon."

You whine about the FED but the FED is infinitely more honest and reliable than ANY other monetary organization in the history of the world, except for the Scottish free banking system of the 1840s. You complain about deficits as "hidden," but there is nothing at all "hidden." Monetary values are INSTANTLY measured worldwide against all other currencies and against commodities and in futures markets and that is why, as you say, we can agree there is deflation.

As for Social Security: written or not, this is viewed as a contract, and you apparently are not talking to "normal" people if you think that ANY government EVER would be able to reneg on this. Amend it, perhaps. Modify, yes. But not end it. It will be paid.

Now, you and a couple of other people are totally hung up on M3. That may ONCE have been a valid indicator, but is not anymore. As you said in your answer, it's a long explanation, but basically, over the last 30 years, most (not all, but most) economists have concluded that the price indicators we have are DEEPLY flawed; that they don't BEGIN to capture genuine "value"; and that as a result, estimates of productivity and value added are WAY understated. Multiply that by 30 years, and you can see why M3 is a somewhat meaningless stat. If we are looking at inflation as "too many dollars chasing too few goods," and the VALUE of the goods is constantly understated, we have no had inflation for a while. I've mentioned to you the multiple new studies of the stock market that show that it was likely well BELOW the real value of the corporations it represented even in the 1980s.

The "Gloomster" view of manufacturing you propose would make Robert Reich proud of you. It's nonsense. We manufacture some things, not others. One of the most important things we "manufacture" is ideas. I agree, it is disgraceful that a large portion of our engineers and scientists are foreign born. But you know what? In the 1920s, a large portion of our chemists and physicists were also foreign born---Jews and Italians and Germans, some just off the boat. The a-bomb was heavily influenced by immigrants---NEW ones, like Fermi, Einstein, and later, Teller.

52 posted on 09/11/2002 4:53:18 AM PDT by LS
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To: STONEWALLS
building new schools are driving our property taxes ever upward so up goes the house note....

Tell me about it. They project 37 mores schools needed in the next 10 years in my property tax area. I'm in a very growing area since it is still kinda affordable.

53 posted on 09/11/2002 4:56:35 AM PDT by technochick99
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To: AdamSelene235
Yeh, that's clever. But government is natural. The Bible required Christians and Jews to pay taxes to legitimate authorities. Government must be financed for its legitimate duties. I have no problem with reasonable taxes. If we give God 10%, I don't see why the government needs any more, but I would, for man's propensity to make errors, allow it 15%. No more.

But I reject pure Libertarian/anarchic notions that we don't need government.

54 posted on 09/11/2002 5:08:12 AM PDT by LS
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To: AdamSelene235
Deficit spending is simply a tax they haven't figured out how to collect yet.

That is very good. Did you come up with that?

BTW, don't you love how the "pure" people in these articles NEVER blame themselves? The old evil banker story coming out of the box...

55 posted on 09/11/2002 5:56:59 AM PDT by Professional
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To: LS
There was a rapid burst of inflation 1947-49, then it disappeared

This inflation is a devaluation of money that was "saved". Forced "saving" is not saving. That is my point.

56 posted on 09/11/2002 7:24:06 AM PDT by staytrue
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To: LS
Hear hear! The Chinese are impressive, but not as impressive as the numbers would indicate. They are the Iron Chef of cooking the books. Makes Enron look like accounting 101. They deserve respect for creating a strong manufacturing culture - they can get things done quickly and cheaply, including tooling and other high-value-add functions. But they are also carrying a staggering deadweight of corruption, bureaucracy, and criminal financial practices that will have to be cleaned up at immense cost.
57 posted on 09/11/2002 7:57:26 AM PDT by eno_
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To: staytrue
I don't think you can find many economists who agree with you. Saving is defined as delayed gratification. It doesn't matter who does the delaying.
58 posted on 09/11/2002 9:18:31 AM PDT by LS
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To: LS
Adam, on housing prices, in my neighborhood---a brand new subdivision in the rapidly growing area of southern Ohio---prices are almost exactly what they were five years ago. I don't know about 10, as I wasn't buying houses then.

I live in a bubble zone, so my immediate subjective experience is skewed.

If you think Communist China is just going to "throw off" its government and become a capitalist paradise, you are flat wrong.

I didn't say that. I just pointed out that all my enterprising friends have moved manufacturing there and that my company found the freedom to develop our technology there.

Let me give you an example of what the Russians and Chinese are up against. In 1990 I attended a conference in Germany, just as the Iron Curtain was falling apart, with MANY leading then-SOviet economic ministers who were genuinely interested (as per Gorby's dictates) in trying to understand capitalism so they could apply it or at least appropriate parts of it.

Completely distinct cases. Stroll around Moscow and stroll around Shanghai...Its astonishing they are even on the same planet. China started capitalistic economic reforms with its farmers in the 1970's. They went from importing to exporting food in a just a couple of years. Russia started centuries behind the rest of the world and rode the Soviet system straight into the ground.The chinese have been dynamic traders for thousands of years, 50 years of stupidity will not derail the tradition. Back when we were painting our faces blue and throwing sticks at each other, the chinese were spreading smallpox variolations and higher mathmatics along their trade routes.

You whine about the FED but the FED is infinitely more honest and reliable than ANY other monetary organization in the history of the world,

I haven't said a single word about the Fed. Please argue with me not some imaginary person whose views you can fabricate and then refute.

As for Social Security: written or not, this is viewed as a contract, and you apparently are not talking to "normal" people if you think that ANY government EVER would be able to reneg on this. Amend it, perhaps. Modify, yes. But not end it. It will be paid.

I see, its "viewed" as a contract. I can "view" my poodle as a pit bull but it doesn't make it so.

The "Gloomster" view of manufacturing you propose would make Robert Reich proud of you. It's nonsense. We manufacture some things, not others. One of the most important things we "manufacture" is ideas. I agree, it is disgraceful that a large portion of our engineers and scientists are foreign born. But you know what? In the 1920s, a large portion of our chemists and physicists were also foreign born---Jews and Italians and Germans, some just off the boat. The a-bomb was heavily influenced by immigrants---NEW ones, like Fermi, Einstein, and later, Teller.

Einstein had very little to do with the bomb.

59 posted on 09/11/2002 10:36:07 AM PDT by AdamSelene235
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To: AdamSelene235
You have a world of "splainin'" to do if you think you are going to convince anyone that China is capitalist, in any sense. Trade does not equal capitalism. Look at Wm. McNeill's "Pursuit of Power," on how the Chinese ran a mercantilist system---for the good of the government---and reacted strongly against capitalism when it came in. I don't think you have a case, regardless of what it appears the "farmers" were doing.

As for Social Security, no, it does matter how Americans "view" things: If they see it as a contract, which they do, they will insist that it be honored.

60 posted on 09/11/2002 10:41:55 AM PDT by LS
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