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Freep KMart on exit-door search policy

Posted on 09/02/2002 3:02:49 PM PDT by Sparqi

Recently I was stopped on my way out of KMart by an employee asking to see my receipt and contents of my bags. I asked if I was suspected of doing something illegal to which he replied, "No, it's just our policy to match purchases against your receipt." I told him that unless he had reasonable cause to believe that I'd done something illegal there was no way I was going to let him inspect either one. To his credit, he did not press the issue and allowed me to leave.

The practice of door-checking seems to have started at either Fry's Electronics in California or perhaps at PriceClub/Costco. In the latter case they can enforce the inspection policy because there is actually a clause in the Costco membership agreement which specifically states that a condition of membership is granting them the right to inspect as you leave. (This is why I don't have a Costco membership.) Fry's has been doing inspections for some time, giving rise to the perjorative term "Door-Nazis". Many people such as myself simply walk by the checkpoint and refuse to stop, since Fry's is not a membership store. Essentially they take advantage of your good nature and ask you to voluntarily waive your freedom (and your dignity) to help them control their shrinkage.

Until recently the Fry's policy was really a local issue, confined to California and some western states; so I never really pursued any activism against them...aside from personally advocating to other people that the practice was an insult and explaining that while Fry's can of course *request* that you stop and allow inspection that they cannot *force* you to stop if they don't have probable cause. Now that KMart is doing this, I think it's national enough to warrant a Freep. Here's what I'm proposing:

1. Make it a point to not be cowed into consenting to the search. If they ask to inspect your purchases, ask them if they suspect you of doing anything illegal. This establishes that they do or don't have cause to stop you. Remember; once you've paid for your purchases and they've accepted the payment, you are carrying personal property and they have cannot search you unless they have probable cause such as evidence of shoplifting.

2. If they admit that they don't have cause, tell them you don't consent to being searched and leave. If they press the issue, remind them that the Fourth Amendment guarantees your right against illegal searches. (Sometimes this is hard to explain, because the checker is not an American citizen.) If they try to restrain you, don't fight them or put up a physical struggle. Ask to speak to the most senior manager of the store immediately. Point out to him or her the illegality of the situation and ask if they're prepared to defend their actions in a court of law.

3. Instruct your friends/family/co-workers on the issue. Make sure they understand that what KMart is doing is an insult and a violation of their basic rights.

...dtw


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism
KEYWORDS: 4thamendment; constitution; fourthamendment; illegalsearch; kmart
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To: alisasny
Technically, you must be past the point of purchase, but good practice means waiting until they exit... (I used to do this for a living - no, not shoplifting, but Loss Prevention)... :0)
21 posted on 09/02/2002 3:21:13 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks
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To: Sparqi
In Fry's I just walk right on through. Never had any problems. It's good of you to get the word out, though. Not everyone is aware that they have the right to do this (sadly); even I had to be told by a friend of mine.
22 posted on 09/02/2002 3:23:03 PM PDT by Dr. Frank fan
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To: Sparqi
I sort of think that if that is their policy, you agree to having your shopping bag (not your person) checked when you agree to do business with them.

Costco briefly checks everyone's cart as they exit (equality before the law), I find that much less objectionable than selective checks (arbitrary application of the law), which I've not experienced anyway. My apologies for the analogy.

23 posted on 09/02/2002 3:23:22 PM PDT by Sam Cree
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To: Freedom4UsAll
Private business, they can do what they want.

Not quite. Like the poster said, they can ask you, but can't force you, to submit to the search. Nothing wrong with making sure Freepers understand this.

24 posted on 09/02/2002 3:24:09 PM PDT by Dr. Frank fan
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To: Sparqi
Excellent advice. And, I got a kick out of your line:
(Sometimes this is hard to explain, because the checker is not an American citizen.)
25 posted on 09/02/2002 3:27:15 PM PDT by Cagey
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To: Sparqi
Surprisingly, the reason for this is not shoplifing. It is employee fraud. Think about it. You go from the checkout stand to the door. What opportunity to you have to grab someting? Very little. What are the odds that the cashier is going to miss your playing jiggery-pokery with the contents of the shopping cart, transfering goods from the cart to a bag of rung-up merchandice? Pretty small.

OTOH, if you are in cahoots with the cashier, the cashier can ring up half of your goods, put the rest in the bag uncharged, and even staple the bag shut with the receipt on the bag. You walk out with $300-400 in electronics, sell it at a flea market or pawn shop and split the take with the cashier.

It gets written off as shoplifting, and store security cannot figure out why they ain't seeing folks boosting stuff. Employee theft is a bigger problem than customer theft. Employees have much more opportunities.
26 posted on 09/02/2002 3:27:23 PM PDT by No Truce With Kings
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To: No Truce With Kings
I agree... based on my own observations, Employee theft and 'grazing' is a larger problem than customers stealing... Shoplifting, on the shrinkage list, is probably third or so - behind damaged/expired product and employee theft... perhaps they should search the employees before they leave...
27 posted on 09/02/2002 3:30:40 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks
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To: BulletBrasDotNet
"Then turn around and return your purchase. That REALLY pisses them off. Two weeks ago, I returned a $600 cell phone at Comp USA after they asked me to see a receipt. I said, "Sure, let's go over here (customer service/return counter) and let's process my return!" "

Bingo! I did the same thing to Best Buy. In 1994, I bought a $1,400 TV. On the way out, not 20 feet from the register where I paid, they asked to see the receipt and check the contents of the parts bag that came with it. I said basicially the same as you did, "Sure, but ya might want to do it over at the customer service counter where I intend to return this TV. See, now that I know you people deal with criminals so much that you inspect even your employees at the cash registers, I am not so sure this television isn't stolen or a valid Sony television. I don't want the problems associated with such a criminal enterprise as Best Buy. So, let's get my money back." They did do their stupid check, and I did return the TV. The manager was a jackass and didn;t care that I returned it. The corporate office offered a %10 discount, but I shredded it and sent it back to them. I bought from a local shop, and even got $100 less on the price.

28 posted on 09/02/2002 3:32:30 PM PDT by PatrioticAmerican
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To: Dog Gone
But to check your bag is no big deal. Really.

Of course it's not. But the chip-on-the-shoulder paranoids have their antennae up, just waiting to pounce on some little guy who wants to make sure that they are taking out of the store only what they paid for.

I'm sure these retailers are glad to be rid of them; they're likely pains-in-the-ass in countless other ways as well.

29 posted on 09/02/2002 3:32:58 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: No Truce With Kings
I like your theory, but think about something for a minute. Have you ever really taken a good look at those guys posted by the store exit? Does it look like they are capable of doing the mental math to see if the ticket matches the items in the bag or cart? I say they are there to intimidate. They always look like rejects from a Roller Derby team.
30 posted on 09/02/2002 3:33:35 PM PDT by Cagey
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To: Chad Fairbanks
I worked for American Greetings and the policy at that time was you can not even approach the suspected shoplifter until they actually left the entrance way to the store...and pretty much expect to be fired if you were wrong.

I also believe that most stealing was done by employees finding all new ways of stealing cash and bypassing security checks and management due to the ungreatful job of being in retail store management.

31 posted on 09/02/2002 3:35:43 PM PDT by alisasny
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To: alisasny
You make some excellent points. Let me add one more- the REAL cause of the bulk of "inventory shrinkage" in these big chain stores is EMPLOYEE THEFT! Shoplifting is a problem, but it can be controlled without searching everyone at the door. But what do you do when expensive merchandise gets put into the Dumpster, for an employee's buddies to retrieve later? There are 1001 scams, and blaming the customer seems to be the wrong way to go.

By the way, I never shop at KMART. IF I did, though, I would not assert a Fourth Amendment right not to be searched, because it does not apply to private acts- only acts of the Federal Government. (Although I tink most State Constitutions have a similar clause).

32 posted on 09/02/2002 3:35:57 PM PDT by RANGERAIRBORNE
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To: No Truce With Kings
I have to laugh about Fry's because they check everyone who has made a legitimate purchase and allow all other people to flow out the door wearing backpacks, coats, baggy clothes, and large purses without a blink. I guess they believe their high-tech anti-theft alarms will catch the non-buyers if they have something on them or in their bags and purses. Meanwhile, the employees harrass the people who DID pay! I also agree that employee theft is probably the number one reason for shrinkage in nearly every business. Some businesses do search purses and bags of employees as they leave. Others have crooked managers who look the other way.
33 posted on 09/02/2002 3:39:44 PM PDT by lsee
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To: RANGERAIRBORNE
Attempting to forcibly search a person could be assault and unlawful detainment, both felonies in many states.
34 posted on 09/02/2002 3:39:50 PM PDT by PatrioticAmerican
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To: alisasny
I was replying to an earlier post of yours (#9). Next time I'll read the whole thread befotre posting- I see that several others made the same point.
35 posted on 09/02/2002 3:42:57 PM PDT by RANGERAIRBORNE
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To: alisasny
When I worked as loss prevention for a major retail grocery chain, I worked the floor and the catwalks... I "profiled" customers and made my own decisions on who I needed to keep an eye on... but I digress...

The policy was simple, and the cops expected me to follow that policy. If I called them, and had failed to follow the policy, I could have been nailed for kidnapping or false arrest... the policy was pretty simple:

1. They select an item...

2. They conceal the item...

Once this occurs, you must maintain visual contact with that individual 100% of the time until they leave. If you don't, you could not stop them (they may have "dropped" it on another shelf when they were out of site...)...

3. Once they actually passed through the doors, the intent was clear and you could stop them...

The interesting part was, I had to be able to specify exactly what the item was, and where, exactly, they had concealed it.

I watched coworkers get nailed for violating this policy, and stopping people who didn't have anything on them, etc... I also busted two coworkers (security guys, no less) for stealing... I followed the policy to the letter, and I still had the highest success rate in my district...

36 posted on 09/02/2002 3:44:17 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks
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To: RANGERAIRBORNE
IF I did, though, I would not assert a Fourth Amendment right not to be searched, because it does not apply to private acts- only acts of the Federal Government.

However, if they detain you and prevent you from leaving, without clear evidence of wrongdoing, it's called False Arrest and/or kidnapping...

37 posted on 09/02/2002 3:45:45 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks
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To: PatrioticAmerican
I worked in retail so long that I still check out what is going on in stores as I shop. I can pick out a shoplifter but I can also pick out a dubios checker as well.

Anyone and I mean anyone can walk out of a major department store with stolen merchandise. Most every store is understaffed and there is no way to catch shoplifters.

One story of my own, I just started managing a new corporate card store in a local mall. I was there maybe 2 days and noticed the store only made about 15 bucks from 6 pm to closing time of 930pm. I did some quick research and this was going on for months and months. Was easy to narrow out the employee stealing all the cash and provide evidence of said behavior. My reward..NOTHING...

I have at least a dozen similar stories of employees stealing cash and no one smart enough to even realize it.

Its a horrible job and I would not recommend retail to anyone.

38 posted on 09/02/2002 3:47:46 PM PDT by alisasny
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To: Chad Fairbanks
see my post 38..loss prevention in retail is also a thankless job.
39 posted on 09/02/2002 3:49:21 PM PDT by alisasny
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To: Sparqi
I've seen both sides of the coin here. For the record, most shrinkage is done by employees or employee related. Some stores do have the "door nazi" to protect themselves from liability of a racial discrimination lawsuit. (political correctness affects us all). If you treat a specific group that is more prone to stealing and catch a number of them, you are profiling, but if you treat everyone like a criminal and still catch the same people, then you're off the hook for the racial aspect. Also, they see it as a deterrent to possible shoplifting, since its noticible. This being said, its also stupid, ineffective, and probably does absolutley nothing, since most shoplifters, make no purchases and just steal and hide the items. They will produce no receipt, and without probable cause, and fear of a lawsuit, can't be searched. Notice they ask to search the bag, not your person. This is stupidity in the highest, and you do not save any money on price, since theft is still high, but your now paying additonal for the security.
40 posted on 09/02/2002 3:49:40 PM PDT by Sonny M
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