flame warrior?
Posted on 08/25/2002 7:21:18 AM PDT by Dog Gone
Edited on 08/25/2002 7:46:31 AM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]
A contingent of op-ed and letter writers to the Chronicle has taken the position that arresting 278 young people during a raid on a shopping center and restaurant parking lot last weekend was entirely justified because of the annoying late-night loitering and drag racing that had become typical at that spot. But the problem with the raid is not that police officers tried to arrest lawbreakers in and around the 24- hour Kmart Super Center parking in the 8400 block of Westheimer. It is with the contemptuous attitude police showed toward the citizenry by not bothering to sort out the good from the bad.
The people who so enthusiastically applaud law enforcement for shoddy police work more than likely would be singing a different tune if they or one of their children had been unjustly swept up in the botched raid and they found themselves spending all of a weekend day working through the city's criminal justice bureaucracy and coughing up large sums to retrieve their car from the pound.
More nettlesome than the irritation of being arrested for no cause, possible long-term consequences of a needlessly acquired criminal record and the potential for significant lawsuits that will have to be defended and settled with public funds, is the fact that the officer who led the Kmart debacle, Houston police Capt. Mark Aguirre, apparently has operated unchecked for years in this free-style arrest mode.
Police Chief C.O. Bradford says he has ordered an inquiry into the parking lot arrests. And Mayor Lee Brown has referred the matter to his Office of Inspector General. But Brown otherwise has been strangely quiet for a mayor who so heavily touted his extensive law enforcement experience during his three election campaigns.
The Chronicle does not condone behavior that is unlawful, or even just annoying, including drag racing, underage drinking, drug use, disturbingly loud music playing or anything else a bunch of kids hanging out late at night in a parking lot might be up to. But neither does the paper support police- state tactics that show an alarming disregard for the right of law-abiding citizens to to go about free from fear of sudden arrest.
Nope. Try fact. You have said there were people in their 30's that were among this group that "hung out" from one week to the next. BS. According to the reports I have read, nobody was in that age group.
Then the police should have arrested the people who were committing the behavior causing the complaints. But, they didn't do that, did they?
Yes, they did. In fact, all entrances/exits were blocked and undercover police officers had handed out cards within the immediate area to who seemed to be legitimate customers before the raid took place. Read the news reports.
But, the tactics of the Houston police committed several violations of Texas law.
The only people who did that were those arrested.
Look, I know you have no respect for law enforcement, and nothing would make you happier than to see another police department's hands further tied through the actions of wide-eyed, paranoid cop haters. But you are gonna have to be a man about this, accept the fact the facts are not in your favor, never have been and never will be, and build a bridge and get over it.
The Chronicle, in their infinite wisdom, never questioned what this girl said or tried to validate it. They simply took her at her word and printed it. Just because other people in this or other threads may have referred to it as well that does not make it more real.
Now, if you have anything more to say to me, I strongly suggest before you do so you actually take the time to read the news stories as they are available here (which includes Christine McDonald's op-ed piece) and get your facts straight.
See #201, especially the last paragraph.
No, I said that people in their 20's, 30's, and even 40's were arrested. I didn't say anything about whether they had "hung out" from one week to the next. Either you are projecting your own opinion onto me, or you are confusing me with someone else.
According to the reports I have read, nobody was in that age group.
I've been following this incident in several forums. In a quick search, I was able to find one that identified some of those arrested as being in their 20's. I'll look around and find a reference to a published report that substantiates the others.
Yes, they did. In fact, all entrances/exits were blocked and undercover police officers had handed out cards within the immediate area to who seemed to be legitimate customers before the raid took place. Read the news reports.
The only reference I've seen to this practice was for K-mart customers, and even that seemed to be hearsay. Do you have an authoriative citation for this? And what about the Sonic customers? And what about those that were arrested even though they were already departing when the police arrived? I've already asked you about the latter, but you keep avoiding it.
The only people who did that were those arrested.
For what? Trespassing on private property of a business that had never filed a complaint? Where's the crime? I'll give you a hint: it's knowingly arresting someone that had committed no crime.
Look, I know you have no respect for law enforcement, and nothing would make you happier than to see another police department's hands further tied through the actions of wide-eyed, paranoid cop haters.
I have a great respect for most of law enforcement. It's people like the captain that has already been suspended that annoy me, even more than the syncophants that think the police can do no wrong.
But you are gonna have to be a man about this, accept the fact the facts are not in your favor, never have been and never will be, and build a bridge and get over it.
OK, I'll make you an offer. If:
I'll withdraw my objections. I'll even post a vanity thread making that declaration.
But, if any of those things do not happen, are you "man enough" to declare that the "facts were in my favor" and that you were wrong and too stubborn to admit it? The conditions are the same: a vanity thread with an admission of error. I'll even skip a demand of an apology for calling me a "cop-hater".
Are you willing to accept my challenge? Or are you going to resort to more ad hominem arguments?
This is all about a police department that decided to use indiscriminate mass arrests in an effort to terrorize people and prevent them from congregating in public. You don't have a problem with that because you don't want these people to get together in your neighborhood.
I understand that. I wouldn't want them a couple of blocks from my house, either. But there are legal ways to deter that, and there are illegal ways. There are ways to prevent police harrassment of those people who are out in public minding their own business and obeying the laws.
You are in complete and utter denial of the police misconduct in this situation, and you are going to be very surprised when you, as a Houston taxpayer, is going to be required to pay untold millions of dollars in lawsuit awards.
I wish there was a way to bill those awards only to Houston citizens who don't think anything wrong occurred here.
I live in Houston and have been following this story - the folks who claim this was a legal congregation forget that in reality that the vast majority of the folks arrested were loitering on private property, and they were definitely ricers who clearly contribute to the problem of drag racing any where such groups hang out. I'd be content for a sweep to be performed in my area of Houston where there's an abandoned grocery store. I've also seen the video of these so-called 'victims' and I don't buy it that most of them were some goodie-goodie straight-A student caught up by coincident.
There's no question the police officers could have handled this differently - but let's not exonerate all of these people and villify the police. Let's be honest about the situation and call it what it was - not what the media has painted it to be. A group of kids should NOT be hanging out doing the stuff they do at these intersections, their parents should jerk them by the short-hairs and let them know they screwed up, the police should do their job better and not make it so easy for these kids to twist their way out of a situation.
I think that most people recognize there was a problem that needed resolution. Where have the cops been all this time? A local resident's editorial says that they dispersed the crowd "a few times in the last six months", but didn't followup when the crowd returned the next weekend.
If someone is loitering (which I believe requires a prior warning and subsequent refusal to move), then they should get a ticket. Even under the dubious circumstances of a a "customers only" sign posted by the police, Texas case law generally doesn't consider someone to be trespassing unless they refuse to leave (I don't really like it, but that's the way it is). A past ticket for loitering should be considered sufficient evidence of being asked to leave, and subsequent defiance probable cause for arrest.
I've also seen the video of these so-called 'victims' and I don't buy it that most of them were some goodie-goodie straight-A student caught up by coincident.
I don't doubt it, either. But, the police can't knowingly arrest someone for a crime they didn't commit, and the customers at the Sonic were not trespassing. Even if some of the arrests were legitimate, how many have to be illegitmate before the small number of HPD's defenders will admit that the police screwed up?
There's no question the police officers could have handled this differently - but let's not exonerate all of these people and villify the police. Let's be honest about the situation and call it what it was - not what the media has painted it to be. A group of kids should NOT be hanging out doing the stuff they do at these intersections, their parents should jerk them by the short-hairs and let them know they screwed up, the police should do their job better and not make it so easy for these kids to twist their way out of a situation.
Only 42 of the 278 people arrested were juveniles. What about the other 236? They are legally adults, under the law. Are you going to blame their parents, too?
Well maybe. Also, maybe things changed a hell of lot in 20 years (I don't envy your growing up in the 60's or 70's) but I know when I was I was growing up the cops left me off so many times and sent me on my way (or maybe with an "un"serious citation) that I couldn't begin to count them!
That's when, IMHO, they really believed in "to protect and serve".
I could tell you some pretty funny stories for several hours, and I wouldn't trade growing up in MY America for anything.
The police admit that there were no racers there that night, and so it's pretty hard to argue that the crowd was there in support of that.
They were loitering. That's not a crime, though.
Maybe it should be. I'd support it. But I think there is something fundamentally wrong with arresting people for a crime that is not yet on the books. And the heavy-handed way they did it to grab everyone there, regardless of whether they were loitering, is the biggest outrage.
I believe the resident's complaints are legitimate and I never doubted that this was a response to a long-standing problem. However, the tactics were more appropriate for a riot than for this situation.
Why didn't the police continue to patrol the area and disperse the crowd -- more often than "two or three times over the past six months"? If people were committing crimes, why didn't the police arrest the violators rather than casting a net over everyone that happened to be there?
A gradual escalation of dispersal, to writing tickets for loitering, and culminating in "the next time I see you here, you are going to jail" would have been far more effective.
Hear, hear!
I have to amend my offer, due to the recent developments:
If you are going to accept my challenge, you had better do it quickly, before the stakes get any higher. The Houston PD administration apparently doesn't agree that "the facts are in your favor", and are imposing sanctions that will have to be repealed in order to substantiate your claim that the raid was legal and proper.
flame warrior?
No, Houmatt's hearing is fine. He just isn't willing "to be a man about this" and admit that he might be wrong.
As I've pointed out to both him and others, one can support the police and even support their goal of managing the crowds, eliminating the street racing, etc. without supporting the illegal mass arrest tactics that are apparently the brainchild of one or a few people.
There's nothing in the US Constitution or the Texas Constitution that says "the end justifies the means", regardless of what some people want to believe.
I think they passed that point a long time ago
If you:
1) Admit that most police officers are not evil beings
2) Confess the cases of Rodney King, Amadou Diallo and Randall Webster, et al, do not represent the respective police departments involved, or the law enforcement profession, as a whole
3) Endorse the idea that police officers should be treated with the utmost respect
4) Agree they are being ridiculously low sums of money for literally placing their lives on the line for the safety of the public on a daily basis
5) Recognize police shootings and deaths that occur during high-speed chases as a whole are not the fault of the police
...then I will say you made some good points and agree to disagree, as Niki has with myself.
In otherwards, you have nothing.
Can I keep him, mommy?
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