Defects in NYPD handguns [Glocks jamming]

NEW YORK DAILY NEWS ^ | Tuesday, August 20th, 2002 | BOB KAPPSTATTER and ALICE McQUILLAN

[archy]

Defects in NYPD handguns

Half subject to jamming

By BOB KAPPSTATTER and ALICE McQUILLAN
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS

Tuesday, August 20th, 2002

More than half of the Police Department's handguns are subject to jam without warning, a potentially dangerous flaw that can leave the weapons as "useless as paperweights," police sources said. Although the jamming is rare, the NYPD has been concerned enough to order a recall of 24,000 semiautomatic Glock handguns so they can be refitted.

This problem affects the Glock Model 19S - the gun carried by about 60% of the department's 39,000 officers. The flaw, in which the shell casing fails to eject, has only arisen during practice and tests at the NYPD firing range, police officials say.

"Our studies have shown this to be a rare occurrence," said police spokesman Chief Michael Collins. "In the worst-case scenario...we estimated that this has happened only once in 450,000 times when fired."

However, during an actual gun battle in Brooklyn, two Emergency Service Unit officers reported that their Glocks failed. Collins said that after an investigation of the October 2000 incident, ballistics experts said whatever problem those guns had, it was not the jamming malfunction that is the subject of the current recall.

To correct the problem, the Austrian-based Glock company has sent engineers to the NYPD's firing range at Rodmans Neck in the Bronx. Since June, they have repaired 3,200 weapons in a procedure that takes about an hour. Immediately afterward, officers tested the refitted weapons at the range, where the results have been excellent, Collins said. The process will continue until all 24,000 Glocks are fixed, he said.

There is a delay in fixing all the weapons, sources said, because cutbacks and the redeployment of officers to special details have made it difficult for cops to schedule time to have their guns repaired.

Sources also said that some of the Glocks have a different problem - locking. When a gun locks, a user can get it functioning again by removing the clip holding the ammunition and manually moving the slide to eject the stuck shell casing.

In that scenario, the source said, "You can be back in the gun battle in a matter of seconds, as opposed to the total jam where the guns become [as] useless as paperweights."

[ASA Vet]

I've put thousands of rounds though Glocks.
I've had jams with low power hand loads, but never with full power hand loads or factory ammo.
Does the NYPD buy ammo, or use their own reloading machine using too little or the wrong powder?

[4CJ]

Bump. Glocks are not cheap. I love my 1911A1, but I'd take a Glock in a heartbeat.

[meyer]

If you are really worried about jams & can't clear them carry a .38 Detective Special - that is what I bought my sister.

Got one dirt cheap a couple of years ago. Its within reach right now, loaded with +P's.

Also have a couple of Glocks and I do like them a great deal. My G-27 is very suitable for CC.

[July 4th]

A Glock is a trooper, it will last forever and keep going, even when filthy.

And should you decide to clean it, it takes absolutely no effort. My favorite gun.

And about the 450,000 rounds, I fully expect that I will never put more than 100,000 rounds through any gun that I own, ever. So I could go through 4 Glocks and theoretically only have 1 failure to extract? Sounds fine to me.

[joesnuffy]

turns out its either the magazine followers or the new feed ramp cuts...on later barrels

I have a gen 1 with no problems

get an aftermarket barrel or new followers no more problems

the new normal capacity mags have proven to be reliable

www.glocktalk.com

[archy]

turns out its either the magazine followers or the new feed ramp cuts...on later barrels

I have a gen 1 with no problems

It's far more likely that you'll have a small part break over a 100,000 round service use of a handgun [I've puched two that far, a 9mm Browning GP and a .45 Colt Combat Commander; it's taken 30 years to get that out of the Browning and 25 for the Commander] or have a misfire from a round of factory ammo, so don't sweat it.

I've come to prefer the Glock 17 over the 19, but that's a personal pick based in part over my decades-long preference for full-sized service handguns. And the ability of an individual to fully strip and maintain a Glock put it head and shoulders ahead of most of the other designs out there, and equal to the M1911.

I suspect my next Glock will be a 36. The Glock 30 I had was a bit largish in my hand.

[sauron]

I am the owner of a Glock 10mm (forget the model #, I'm at work at the moment), and have fired probably very close to 1,000 rounds to date.

I recently had it jam. Casing failed to eject properly.

I was very surprised. First time it ever happened.

It was also the first time that I fired some "reloads" that my friend and I had prepared.

I wouldn't trade my Glock for anything. I love it, and am totally familiar with its feel and capabilities. I recently competed against several hundred others in a corporate games competition, and received 1st place in the amateur division.

This, with a semi-auto, not-very-long barrel 10mm without the advantage of a hair trigger or other, more "professional" stuff.

[Double Tap]

You might want to think long and hard about that G-36. I owned one for a period of time and it was the most problematic Glock I've ever seen. It was not consistantly reliable with any ammo other than FMJ.

I've seen this problem mentioned on other pistols of this model by other people on other boards. Just beware.

[Don Simmons]

That's what they get for buying gourmet handguns. Never cared for Glocks myself. Personal preference, I guess.

Three words: SMITH AND WESSON

[TC Rider]

That said, I have NEVER seen one jam.

I shoot IDPA with a Glock 34 that has been virtually totally without any malfunction.

In my case, the few I experienced were related to a weak mag spring on a pre-ban high cap I bought. Another time I knew I was in an awkward position and 'limp-wristed' it, not allowing the slide to fully travel.

Both my fault.

One has to wonder if training is not part of the problem in NYC?

Would I trust my life to my Glock? Absolutely. Yet, I always carry a snubby .38 as a backup.

[TC Rider]

While the Glock 19 has been purchased in higher numbers (25,000 units) than either the S&W 5946 or Sig-Sauer P226 DAO variant, approximately two-thirds of NYPD's last academy class chose a handgun other than the Glocks as their duty weapon. DS

I know two Master class competitors who have sent their Sigs back and quit their Sig sponsorships because of malfunctions during matchs. I know one of them went back to using a Glock 34 (competition version of 17).

Based on the number of FTF, FTE, etc I've seen at matchs, the one pistol I would never trust my life to would be a 1911. I'm sure there are good ones out there, but this is the nature of anecdotal evidence.

[1Old Pro]

a procedure that takes about an hour. Immediately afterward, officers tested the refitted weapons at the range, where the results have been excellent, Collins said. The process will continue until all 24,000 Glocks are fixed, he said.

24,ooo times $50/hour is 1.2 million. Now that's an expensive mistake.

[sauron]

I was using Wolf ammo. Upon firing, the case split, wedging itself firmly into the barrel, which required disassembly of the gun to get the @#%$^ thing out. My local gunsmith told me it's the third problem he's seen with Wolf ammo doing bad things in glocks (one of the other two, it blew up the glock).

Solution: don't use Wolf ammo any more (it's Russian-made using laminated steel case instead of brass). I got it as cheap practice ammo, but it's not worth the risk

Thanks for the warning about Wolf ammo. I've been using a bunch of it in 7.62 and have experienced a lot of misfires. About 10-15%.

I only hope the Russian Army doesn't rely on it when the time comes to face the Chinese....

[ibbryn]

I fired about 1200 rounds of Wolf through a Glock 19 over a three day period without cleaning the weapon. At the end of the final day there were so much lacquer and gunk built up in the weapon that it wasn't consistently extracting. I also didn't have the confidence that the ammo was consistently hitting where I was aiming, and I was blaming the ammo for what might have been my poor shooting. I also had several hard primers that did not go off, which I don't really mind as they provide a good failure drill.

I don't use Wolf for serious training anymore, though I'm fine taking it out to the range for plinking duties.

[SauronOfMordor]

Thanks for the warning about Wolf ammo. I've been using a bunch of it in 7.62 and have experienced a lot of misfires. About 10-15%.

That is excessive for any ammo manufacturer, even Wolf. I would hold onto the misfires and complain to the guy you got the ammo from, or even back to Wolf.

Then again, perhaps it's a problem with your rifle, with the firing pin not hitting the primer hard enough or in the right spot. I would give a box to somebody else with an AK or SKS and see if they have the same misfire rate. The AK and SKS are specifically designed to work with that design of ammo

[archy]

You might want to think long and hard about that G-36.

I owned one for a period of time and it was the most problematic Glock I've ever seen. It was not consistantly reliable with any ammo other than FMJ.

I've seen this problem mentioned on other pistols of this model by other people on other boards. Just beware.

I don't disagree, not a tad. But I've come to expect more problems from the shorty versions of service handguns than from the full-size service model counterparts, going back all the way to the days when I had three Star PDs so that I could generally keep one available for realtime use.

Best of those I've had over the years has been a .45 Combat Commander, with over 11K through it without a hitch. Including 4 shots upon which my life depended.

Of pocket hardware, I'm usually pretty confident with PM Makarovs for dependability, but would rather make a larger hole. Though one person with some serious experience with the Mak still depends on it, but now carries two....

[Dead Dog]

I have a Glock 20, only misfires when people ride the slide home. Otherwise it's been flawless.

[js1138]

we estimated that this has happened only once in 450,000 times when fired.

Good to see this is a problem for the NYPD.

[archy]

we estimated that this has happened only once in 450,000 times when fired.

Good to see this is a problem for the NYPD.

Those fellers reuse their brass a LOT more than I usually manage....

[B Coyote]

I think the problem is in the NY2 Trigger Spring itself, not the gun or ammunition.

By design, it puts additional pressure on the Trigger with Trigger Bar's Cruciform. For those who don't know, it's the Cruciform's tail end that actuates the Striker to fire the pistol.

That additional pressure can be enough to slow slide velocity with a slightly underpowered round, improper lubrication, or even the shooter himself riding the slide. Slowed slide velocity during firing creates malfunctions.

If ANYONE is to blame, it's NYPD and their lawyers for requiring the HEAVY trigger pull. Glock simply accommodates NYPD's wishes by giving the customer the heavier spring. Glock's original trigger spring works just fine in the majority of their guns, and the old saying applies: "If it's not broke, don't fix it."

Regards,
bc