AMNESTY FOR ILLEGAL ALIENS? (a question for Freepers)

August 22nd, 2002 | Sabertooth

[Sabertooth]

This is a vanity post, let's get that straight from the start.

Perhaps the most vain aspect of it is the conceit that it might stay on topic, but I'm going to give it a whirl.

One of the more contentious species of threads encountered on Free Republic are those dealing with the subject of America's immigration policy, particularly with regard to the Illegal Aliens currently in our country. According a range of reasonable sources, the estimates of their numbers here currently here range from six to thirteen million. Whatever the actual count, there are quite a few people now in violation of American immigration law.

One subtopic that inevitably arises is the question of Amnesty:

Should all or some portion of the Illegal Aliens be granted an Amnesty and be thereby allowed to change their status and acquire legal residence in the United States?

That's the question I'd like to put forward to the members of Free Republic.

Almost as inevitably on threads dealing with this subject, flame wars erupt. It's not my purpose to instigate another round of that, they're rather predictable. So I'd like to ask that your comments, if you're inclined to share them, focus on the big picture of American immigration policy, with particular attention to the subject of Amnesty. I'm not interested in the stock and gratuitous divisiveness of race-baiting or referring to the President as "Jorge," or anything of that nature from any quarter. It achieves nothing, it's sulphurous methane heat with no light shed.

I'd also like to avoid ad hominem ambushes. I'm genuinely interested in learning the collective feelings of Free Republic members on this subject. If you're gonna post, I'd like to ask that you ante up with your opinion on the question at hand before engaging the discussion with others. No taking potshots from the obscurity of the sidelines. I'll post my opinion below at #1.

Fair enough?

So, once again, here's the question:

Should all or some portion of the Illegal Aliens be granted an Amnesty and be thereby allowed to change their status and acquire legal residence in the United States?

[WRhine]

Hutch and others refuse to admit immigration is on the minds of a lot of people.

Yes and this point was made abundantly clear when the RNC removed questions about "Immigration" from their national surveys and told their candidates to AVOID the issue. There is much denial in the Republican Party about immigration and the more they deny the problem the more it is going to hurt the party's fortunes.

[Reaganwuzthebest]

Remember the Lemming Creed

Rather than following them off a cliff, it's more like being lost in a maze.

[hchutch]

I could turn that right back on you.

I'm sorry, but I think I've avoided personal attacks, race-baiting, and things like that. My only problem seems to be that I have disagreed with you.

You seem to have a problem with that. And others here have implied that my disagreement on this issue makes me a closet liberal - well, I think I have a right to be angry about that. I consider that a personal attack, mostly because I'm accused of being a liar. Those are prohibited on this forum, and furthermore, Sabertooth has asked that no "ad hominem ambushes" occur, either. The best I can say is that I do not feel ambushed by your ad hominems in this discussion.

I've been brated by you and WRhine just as much. You've also falsely claimed that I have posted my brother's "biased opinions." I have not done so, I posted observations. Does anyone who has experiences or who makes observations counter to your agenda have "biased opinions"?

I posted a couple of dictionary links a while back. I guess you did not use them. I suggest you do so. Otherwise, I'll be more than happy to do that.

Furthermore, you, WRhine, and Reaganwuzthebest have been berating me as well in a far worse fashion. Furthermore, you in particular have been the worst of the three in berating me. WRhine and Reaganwuzthebest have made statements that imply I am a closet liberal when I am not.

I have only returned fire. If you want a flame war, you'll get one. These polls are not just New York Times, by the way. Gallup posted questions on this (the one that showed that only a PLURALITY want immigration levels decreased - a number that has declined nine points since October), while the other polls come from ABCNews.com.

Sorry if I don't use your favorite pollster, but I have my questions about Zogby. Sorry if I call you on your bullying. You might need to look and read carefully, but I'm also on record as saying that VA Advogado's beanball at Sabertooth earlier was out of bounds, so I've called folks who disagree with you on a decorum issue, too.

Who do I think I am? A solid conservative who disgarees with you on this issue, who is not going to roll over and play dead just because I've come under attack. You've been wanting to see conservative fight for what they believe in, and you're just come across one who disagrees with you.

As I said previously, "Hello pot, this is the kettle calling..."

[Marine Inspector]

I agree that 245(i) is flawed, but if it was changed to conform to my specifications it would not be that bad in my opinion, as it would be limited to only the spouse and children and not the other family members.

Also, the spouse and children do not count against any other immigration cap numbers and does not penalize law-abiding citizens and legal residents of the United States.

And while I'm against illegal immigration, I also don't want to see legitimate families torn apart.

[Marine Inspector]

Guys, please stop pinging me to your argument, I'm really not interested in it.

[VA Advogado]

WRhine and Reaganwuzthebest have made statements that imply I am a closet liberal when I am not.

I agree with WRhine and RWTB. At the least you're a drama queen and that's equally as annoying.

[Howlin]

Argggghhhhhhhh......the dreaded 666!

BTW, hchutch is NOT a liberal. People CAN disagree.

[Reaganwuzthebest]

Furthermore, you in particular have been the worst of the three in berating me. WRhine and Reaganwuzthebest have made statements that imply I am a closet liberal when I am not.

You know, I have no idea whether you're a liberal or not, what I'm saying now is at least with respect to illegal immigration and amnesties, you are taking the position that mirrors Dick Gephardt's and the democrats. You have yet to dispute that.

No one is saying you don't have a right to those views, Paul Gigot and the Wall St. Journal argue for them relentlessly. My reason for disagreeing with you are twofold: it goes against the rule of law, and is poison politics both for the country and the Republican party

[Howlin]

Who on EARTH is quoting Zogby? Nobody believes him anymore; unless, of course, his numbers fit their agenda.

Keep the faith.

[Sabertooth]

Also, the spouse and children do not count against any other immigration cap numbers and does not penalize law-abiding citizens and legal residents of the United States.

I believe that continually allowing the group of people with the least standing to be here to flout the rule of law penalizes all who have legal standing to be here. That is the principle of equal protection under the law.

Also, since so many Illegals and Amnestees are such huge users of government largesse, they take away from all who are taxed to fund their needs and wants.

And while I'm against illegal immigration, I also don't want to see legitimate families torn apart.

Nor do I, though I would phrase it differently in regard to the matter at hand.

The family is separated or "torn apart" when the first member emigrates to America. That's a decision they make on their own, America is not responsible for it.

I think prospective immigrants ought to declare an intent of family reunification upon entry into the United States. We have the right to consider that possibility before admitting them. If they don't declare intent, then they are ineligible for future family reunification.

Once they're in and have demonstrated that they are financially able to bring family members in without public largesse, I would give first priority to properly designated family reunification cases... but everyone admitted under family reunification would count against immigration caps.

Seems fair to me, how about you?

[WRhine]

Sorry if I don't use your favorite pollster, but I have my questions about Zogby.

Favorite pollster? Like I said previously, even immigration advocates know that the American Public in poll after poll express overwhelming support FOR Immigration Reform.

You Like Polls? Check out the below link for FAIR's summary of polls on immigration. They cover many of the major pollsters in the country and you might want to think about this excerpt from, of ALL PLACES, a Wall Street Journal Poll...Among Hispanics, three-and-one-half times as many respondents viewed current immigration as "too open" compared with those who viewed it as "too closed."

Polls on Immigration

[VA Advogado]

BTW, hchutch is NOT a liberal. People CAN disagree.

HOWLIN!! LTNS. If HCHUTCH not a liberal, he/she is a drama queen. Actually, we agree on expanding immigration, just like President Bush wants. I just can't take HCHUTCH'S whining and hand wringing.

[VA Advogado]

Check out the below link for FAIR's summary of polls on immigration.

FAIR is a racist, aryan hate group and its biased numbers should not be given any credit.

[WRhine]

Who on EARTH is quoting Zogby? Nobody believes him anymore; unless, of course, his numbers fit their agenda.

As if you and hchutch DON'T have an agenda...LOL! You are a trip Howlin.

[Sabertooth]

You've also falsely claimed that I have posted my brother's "biased opinions."

I actually haven't commented much on your brother's opinions ( I know that wasn't directed at me), because I didn't see them. Were they here or on another thread ?

If they're somewhere else, would you mind posting the gist of them here? If you want to cut and paste, that's cool.

[Sabertooth]

Argggghhhhhhhh......the dreaded 666!

If I had been an atheist, I'd suddenly no longer be.

As I wasn't, I'll ascribe this to numerical coincidence.

[VA Advogado]

If I had been an atheist, I'd suddenly no longer be.

Your issues have less to do with religion and more to do with you and your linen wearing friends.

[Sabertooth]

FAIR is a racist, aryan hate group and its biased numbers should not be given any credit.

And your evidence for that is?

Or is it racist of me to ask you to substantiate a charge?

[WRhine]

FAIR is a racist, aryan hate group and its biased numbers should not be given any credit.

You never fail to disappoint me with your ceaseless race baiting. You lost your credibility on this topic long ago. Any immigration reform group to you is "racist". But apparently you didn't even bother to check out the link I provided. If you did you would have noticed that FAIR only showed the results of major "independent" pollsters--not their own.

It must be a sad existence when the only way you feel you can score points on an issue is to accuse people of being racist. Enough Said.

[VA Advogado]

FAIR is a racist, aryan hate group and its biased numbers should not be given any credit.

And your evidence for that is?

http://www.adl.org/presrele/DiRaB_41/3680_41.asp