Ehhhhhhhhhhhh...What a maroon!
Posted on 08/21/2002 7:35:39 AM PDT by xsysmgr
"Ruby Ridge" used to refer to a geographical location in the state of Idaho, but after an incident that took place there ten years ago today, the phrase has come to refer to a scandalous series of events that opened the eyes of many people to the inner workings of the federal government, including the vaunted Federal Bureau of Investigation. Now that ten years have passed, the feds will accelerate their ongoing effort to "move forward" and have the scandal declared "ancient history." But the Ruby Ridge episode should not be soon forgotten.
On August 21, 1992 a paramilitary unit of the U.S. Marshals Service ventured onto the 20-acre property known as Ruby Ridge. A man named Randy Weaver owned the land and he lived there with his wife, children, and a family friend, Kevin Harris. There was an outstanding warrant for Weaver's arrest for a firearms offense and the marshals were surveilling the premises. When the family dog noticed the marshals sneaking around in the woods, it began to bark wildly. Weaver's 14-year-old boy, Sammy, and Kevin Harris proceeded to grab their rifles because they thought the dog had come upon a wild animal.
A firefight erupted when a marshal shot and killed the dog. Enraged that the family pet had been cut down for no good reason, Sammy shot into the woods at the unidentified trespasser. Within a few minutes, two human beings were shot dead: Sammy Weaver and a marshal. Harris and the Weaver family retreated to their cabin and the marshals retreated from the mountain and called the FBI for assistance.
During the night, FBI snipers took positions around the Weaver cabin. There is no dispute about the fact that the snipers were given illegal "shoot to kill" orders. Under the law, police agents can use deadly force to defend themselves and others from imminent attack, but these snipers were instructed to shoot any adult who was armed and outside the cabin, regardless of whether the adult posed a threat or not. The next morning, an FBI agent shot and wounded Randy Weaver. A few moments later, the same agent shot Weaver's wife in the head as she was standing in the doorway of her home holding a baby in her arms. The FBI snipers had not yet announced their presence and had not given the Weavers an opportunity to peacefully surrender.
After an eleven-day standoff, Weaver agreed to surrender. The FBI told the world that it had apprehended a band of dangerous racists. The New York Times was duped into describing a family (two parents, three children) and one adult friend as "an armed separatist brigade." The Department of Justice proceeded to take over the case, charging Weaver and Harris with conspiracy to commit "murder." Federal prosecutors asked an Idaho jury to impose the death penalty. Instead, the jury acquitted Weaver and Harris of all of the serious criminal charges. Embarrassed by the outcome, FBI officials told the world that there would be a thorough review of the case, but the Bureau closed ranks and covered up the mess. FBI director Louis Freeh went so far as to promote one of the agents involved, Larry Potts, to the Bureau's number-two position.
When Weaver sued the federal government for the wrongful death of his wife and son, the government that had tried to kill him twice now sought an out-of-court settlement. In August 1995 the U.S. government paid the Weaver family $3.1 million. On the condition that his name not be used in an article, one Department of Justice official told the Washington Post that if Weaver's suit had gone to trial in Idaho, he probably would have been awarded $200 million.
With the intervening events at Waco, more and more people began to question the veracity of Department of Justice and FBI accounts and whether the federal government had the capacity to hold its own agents accountable for criminal misconduct. Like the Watergate scandal, however, the response to the initial illegality turned out to be even more shocking and disturbing.
When an FBI supervisor, Michael Kahoe, admitted to destroying evidence and obstructing justice, he was eventually prosecuted but only after being kept on the FBI payroll until his 50th birthday — so that he would be eligible for his retirement pension. And when Larry Potts was finally forced into retirement, FBI officials flew into Washington from around the country for his going-away bash. Those officials claimed to be on "official business" so they billed the taxpayers for the trip. After the fraud was leaked to the press by some anonymous and apparently sickened FBI agent, the merry band of partygoers were not discharged from service. Instead, a letter was placed in their personnel file, chiding them for "inattention to detail."
An Idaho prosecutor did bring manslaughter charges against the FBI sniper who shot Vicki Weaver. That move really outraged the feds because they insisted that they were capable of policing their own — so long as they did not have any outside "interference."
The Department of Justice was so disturbed by the indictment of its agent that they dispatched the solicitor general to a federal appellate court to argue that the charges should be dismissed. (The solicitor general ordinarily only makes oral argument to the Supreme Court). The solicitor general told the judicial panel that even if the evidence supported the charges, the case should be thrown out because "federal law enforcement agents are privileged to do what would otherwise be unlawful if done by a private citizen." The appeals court rejected that sweeping argument for a license to kill, but by the time that ruling came down last June, a new local prosecutor was in office in Boundary County, Idaho, and he announced that it was time to put this whole unpleasant episode behind us and to "move on." Thus, the criminal case against the sniper was dropped.
A new generation of young people who have never heard of Ruby Ridge are now emerging from the public-school system and are heading off to college and will thereafter begin their careers in business, education, journalism, government, and other fields. This generation will find it hard to fathom that the federal government could have killed a boy and an unarmed woman and then tried to deceive everyone about what had actually occurred and, in some instances, rationalize what did occur. That is why it is important to remember Ruby Ridge. Someone needs to remind the young people (and everyone else) that it really did happen — and that it will happen again if the government is not kept on a short leash. No one will learn about the incident when they tour the FBI facility in Washington. It goes unmentioned for some reason.
— Timothy Lynch is director of the Cato Institute's Project on Criminal Justice.
Ehhhhhhhhhhhh...What a maroon!
i keep waiting to read that somebody wacked Lon the murderer but he seems to have gone off the radar completely.
I agree with most of your post. A couple of those "words" are found in the Declaration of Independence though! :^)
Yeah, I know; I was in a hurry and didn't proof it, but it did get the point across. Most American folks in 1776 probably thought the revolutionaries were nuts.
L
That's exactly why the Feds targeted Weaver.
Weaver was guilty of selling illegal weapons to who he believed was a terrorist;
Wrong again. Weaver wasn't convicted of selling illegal weapons.
14 year old boys (with other armed gunmen) shooting at you is a legitimate threat.
Weavers son didn't fire at anyone until the Marshalls fired. They killed his dog. The Weaver boy cranked off a couple of rounds, hit Marshall Dugan and then ran away. The Marshalls shot him in the back.
The crime is Randy Weaver arming his family and telling them to shot cops in order to prevent him from going to jail.
This is a bald faced lie. Weaver wasn't charged with any such thing.
Vicky Weaver is another story, but she was armed at the time she was shot
No she wasn't but it wouldn't have made any difference if she was. Mrs. Weaver was murdered plain and simple.
Ruby Ridge was a tragic, but it is important not to lose sight of the fact that the law enforcement officers were there doing their jobs
Which Law Enforcement officers are you talking about? Do you mean the Prosecutor who deliberately gave Weaver an incorrect court date? Do you mean the BATF agents who lied to the Judge? Do you mean the Marshalls who were trespassing on Weavers land without the benefit of a duly constituted Warrant? Do you mean the FBI SAIC who wrote what were later found in Court to be un-Constitutional 'Rules of Engagement'? And do you mean all those violations of Weavers rights, court procedures, and outright perjury on the part of these 'law enforcement' are part of their jobs?
The bottom line is that New Students that have never heard of Ruby Ridge should not be taught of a tyrannical government that never existed, but should recognize that when government agents are placed in deadly situations and are placing their lives on the line to protect the honest citizens of America; some times mistakes are made.
These weren't 'mistakes' newbie. These were criminal actions on the part of more than one 'law enforcement' agent in the paid employ of the Federal government which resulted in the murders of people who weren't charged with any crime.
some times mistakes are made. They should be acknowledged, corrected, and we should move on to live in a peaceful civilization.
How exactly were these 'mistakes' corrected? Did one single Federal officer spend one single night in jail? Did one single Federal officer pay so much as a five dollar fine? Was anyone fired? Was anyone disciplined in any way?
Weaver's mistakes should also be expressed so the New Students will not support terrorists wishing to engage in crimes against humanity
Randy Weaver was not a terrorist. He wasn't charged with it, he wasn't tried for it, and he certainly wasn't ever convicted of anything but 'failure to appear'. Your accusing him of supporting terrorism is slander.
After Weaver finally was arrested he did have a fair trial
It's amazing how compliant he got after the Feds murdered his wife and kid....
if he only would have trusted in the principles of this country in the first place, he would have been spared a great deal of unnecessary pain.
Weaver actually did. The Feds lied to him about his court date.
If you commit a crime, murdering anyone that attempts to make you pay for your crime
Once again; Randy Weaver was charged with, and found not guilty of, the charge of murder in a court of law.
Funny thing, though. The FBI agent who shot Vicki Weaver in the face never had to go to trial....
L
The government did not go after Randy Weaver because of his beliefs
That's exactly why the Feds targeted Weaver.
(Actually it wasn’t Weaver’s beliefs that got him into trouble; it was his association with the criminal element. The Aryan Nations were already being investigated for the actions to the Order and Weaver’s good friend Pastor Butler was arrested for planning to blow up a gay bar shortly before Weaver was arrested. The issue was about beliefs, it was about crime, and Weaver associated with criminals and participated in criminal activity.)
Weaver was guilty of selling illegal weapons to who he believed was a terrorist;
Wrong again. Weaver wasn't convicted of selling illegal weapons.
(He wasn’t convicted of selling illegal weapons because his lawyers claimed he was entrapped, but that does not negate the fact that Weaver was guilty of committing the crime. That fact is not disputed; Weaver admits it in his book.)
14 year old boys (with other armed gunmen) shooting at you is a legitimate threat.
Weavers son didn't fire at anyone until the Marshalls fired. They killed his dog. The Weaver boy cranked off a couple of rounds, hit Marshall Dugan and then ran away. The Marshalls shot him in the back.
(First of all, the bullet that killed Marshal Degan was fired by Kevin Harris. The U.S. Marshals were not on the Weaver’s property, and a Marshall identified himself to Randy Weaver (within yelling distance) before anyone else fired a shot. Who shot first, and when the dog was shot is disputed.)
The crime is Randy Weaver arming his family and telling them to shot cops in order to prevent him from going to jail.
This is a bald faced lie. Weaver wasn't charged with any such thing.
(Again, there is no dispute about Weaver arming his family. It is common knowledge that the majority of the time the Weavers and Kevin Harris were armed. There are statistics even on the percentage of time each family member was armed while outside the cabin. The Weavers were under surveillance for a good period of time. The Weaver’s friends whom agents were in contact with while the Weavers were hiding out made that report on numerous occasions. The Weavers were video taped conducting drills in which the take fighting positions, and the Weavers also say these things in their book. It doesn’t make it any less of a fact, simply because they weren’t charged with a crime over it. Not every action that is in bad taste requires criminal charges, and simply because criminal charges are not filed, that doesn’t mean that the behavior was appropriate.)
Vicky Weaver is another story, but she was armed at the time she was shot
No she wasn't but it wouldn't have made any difference if she was. Mrs. Weaver was murdered plain and simple.
(Vicky Weaver was wearing a holstered sidearm that was not removed until after she was dead shortly before Randy finally gave up. The shot that hit Vicky was supposedly aimed at Kevin Harris, which the bullet did in fact hit. Whether you believe Vicky was visible or not, the bullet did still hit Kevin Harris so the agent’s story is not outrageous. The poor judgment on the agent’s part was firing into a door without being certain of what was behind it.)
Ruby Ridge was tragic, but it is important not to lose sight of the fact that the law enforcement officers were there doing their jobs
Which Law Enforcement officers are you talking about?
(BATF, US Marshals, FBI)
Do you mean the Prosecutor who deliberately gave Weaver an incorrect court date?
(No, I was not talking about Prosecutors.)
Do you mean the BATF agents who lied to the Judge?
(I mean the BATF agents that successfully arrested Randy initial with no problems for a crime he did in fact commit)
Do you mean the Marshalls who were trespassing on Weavers land without the benefit of a duly constituted Warrant?
(The US Marshals had a warrant for Weavers arrest that is why they were there. Weaver was a fugitive and the Marshals were brought in to bring him to justice. They didn’t break into his house and they would need to cross the outside of his property in order to arrest him no matter what. If you commit a crime you can be arrested anywhere, although a warrant might be required to search someone’s home for evidence, arresting someone out front of their house is not unconstitutional.)
Do you mean the FBI SAIC who wrote what were later found in Court to be un-Constitutional 'Rules of Engagement'?
(Yes, I meant the FBI. The ROE were inappropriate, and that is one of the problems the agencies have since fixed. No body was shot under those rules of engagement.)
And do you mean all those violations of Weavers rights, court procedures, and outright perjury on the part of these 'law enforcement' are part of their jobs?
(What violation of his rights? He knew for many months that he was a fugitive and that the US Marshals were asking him to turn himself in. Once he was arrested, he received a fair trial. Kevin Harris even remarked how well the justice system worked. He received all of his Miranda rights; he had free speech and could practice his religion. He was baring arms even though after his arrest on gun charges he was not legally allowed to. Even if is were true that Weaver was unaware of the change in his court date, WEAVER DIDN’T ATTEND THE ONE HE KNEW ABOUT ANYWAYS. )
The bottom line is that New Students that have never heard of Ruby Ridge should not be taught of a tyrannical government that never existed, but should recognize that when government agents are placed in deadly situations and are placing their lives on the line to protect the honest citizens of America; some times mistakes are made.
These weren't 'mistakes' newbie. These were criminal actions on the part of more than one 'law enforcement' agent in the paid employ of the Federal government which resulted in the murders of people who weren't charged with any crime.
(The ROE that were not even used and have since been corrected were a mistake, but they were based on psychological profiles of individuals who were directly associated with criminals/terrorists and who had already killed a federal agent. They were worried about Vicky Weaver murdering her children before surrendering. This in not an absurd suggestion being that Vicky believed she was fighting a war with the devil and that the devil was coming for her children. She also wrote letters to numerous government agencies addressing them as ‘servants of the queen of Babylon.” Weaver was investigated by the US Secret Service for making threats to assassinate the President of the United States before he even left Iowa. The FBI had reason to believe the Weavers were unstable, and they were focusing on protecting the children. Shooting the dog was a mistake and the firing through a door was a mistake. These issues have been addressed and corrected. The shooting of Vicky Weaver was officially ruled as being constitutional, if you’d like to read the official reports they are available here: http://foia.fbi.gov/rubyridgeshootingincident/rubyridgeshootingincident_part01.pdf
http://foia.fbi.gov/rubyridgeshootingincident/rubyridgeshootingincident_part02.pdf )
some times mistakes are made. They should be acknowledged, corrected, and we should move on to live in a peaceful civilization.
How exactly were these 'mistakes' corrected? Did one single Federal officer spend one single night in jail? Did one single Federal officer pay so much as a five dollar fine? Was anyone fired? Was anyone disciplined in any way?
(The above to links address some of the steps that have been taken. Unfortunately, in order to keep the federal agent’s hands clean they have also stop assisting local sheriffs in similar sieges, placing the burden on inexperienced local police and sheriff offices. No officers went to jail because Vicky Weaver’s shooting was ruled as constitutional, and Weaver’s son and Kevin Harris were involved in a fire fight with law enforcement officers. Here is a hint, if police officers are aiming guns at you or attempting to place you under arrest, and if you refuse, or shoot at them, you are waving your right to a trial and placing yourself in immediate danger.)
Weaver's mistakes should also be expressed so the New Students will not support terrorists wishing to engage in crimes against humanity
Randy Weaver was not a terrorist. He wasn't charged with it, he wasn't tried for it, and he certainly wasn't ever convicted of anything but 'failure to appear'. Your accusing him of supporting terrorism is slander.
(Weaver was speaking with the informant about starting a new group such as the Order to rob banks, blow up dams, and kidnap children. Weaver then sold illegal weapons to this informant with the belief that they would be distributed to street gangs in order to murder minorities. Weaver associated with terrorists (the Ku Klux Klan is a domestic terrorist organization) and yes he was tried for conspiracy to overthrow the United States. The terrorism laws we have today, did not develop until after the Oklahoma City Bombing, but he was charged with conspiracy and associated with groups that committed terrorist acts. I accuse him of supporting terrorism because he admitted to selling illegal weapons to a person he believed to be a terrorist, that comes from his admission and is not something I made up to make him look bad. You do not have to be convicted of supporting terrorism in order for it to be true. Many groups in the US raise money for HAMAS and other groups and are in fact supporting terrorism, regardless of whether or not there is currently enough evidence to convict them.)
After Weaver finally was arrested he did have a fair trial
It's amazing how compliant he got after the Feds murdered his wife and kid....
(He didn’t surrender after either his son or wife was shot. Bo Grits had to talk him into surrendering. Once he was in the justice system he saw that it was run by the devil like he believed it was, and he received a fair trial. Kevin Harris even boasted about how well the justice system worked in his joint book with Randy and Sarah. The problem was that he wasn’t compliant in the first place. When you are placed under arrest within the US you are afford the due process of law, resisting arrest and threatening to law enforcement officers is not the way are justice system works, and if you fire and officers or physically resist arrest you place yourself in unnecessary danger. )
if he only would have trusted in the principles of this country in the first place, he would have been spared a great deal of unnecessary pain.
Weaver actually did. The Feds lied to him about his court date.
(Weaver didn’t show up to any court date other than when he was physically arrested)
If you commit a crime, murdering anyone that attempts to make you pay for your crime
Once again; Randy Weaver was charged with, and found not guilty of, the charge of murder in a court of law.
(Kevin Harris was charged with it, and the fact remains that Randy threatened it. The threats is what led to increased ROE, and the fact that after being ordered not to possess fire arms, Randy routinely was video taped with fire arms in his possession while being a fugitive. Randy’s behavior was erratic, besides the Secret Service investigating him for threatening to kill the President (before leaving Iowa) he also attended a meeting in the local community regarding protecting endangered bears, at that meeting Randy threatened to kill everyone at the meeting if his family had a negative encounter with a bear.)
Funny thing, though. The FBI agent who shot Vicki Weaver in the face never had to go to trial....
(He was never charged with a crime, but he was investigated, went before Congress, and the shooting was ruled Constitutional. What more do you want. If the highest courts in the country ruled that the shot was legal, do you expect the agent to be placed in double jeopardy and have some local judge bubba make a second opinion? The agent said he was aiming for Kevin Harris and the bullet actually hit Kevin Harris, given credence to the theory that the agent was some super sniper that was able to plan out a shot with some magic bullet that can remove to targets at once is not something we should consider as a matter of fact.)
(The majority of my research stems from Kevin Harris, Randy and Sarah Weaver’s book, the book ‘Every Knee Will Bow’ and the Freedom of Information Act Report links above. I am not making stuff up, everything I stated is recorded I just didn’t put page numbers because I was not writing in any official capacity. I have read much more on the subject but most do not provide as accurate of facts as the three I mentioned above. Those sources tell the story from all sides of the players involved. The media, conspiracy theorists, libertarians, Timothy McVeighs, and others provide inaccurate information trying to create a picture of a tyrannical government that doesn’t exist. The government is not run by a Jewish conspiracy, or large corporations, or the anti-Christ, it is still a government run by the people and for the people. Government agents are no different than their fellow citizens, and when they are placed in dangerous situations they are liable to make errors due to stress, just like anyone else might. If guns are drawn, everybody is nervous, that is not the time to defend yourself especially against legitimate law enforcement agencies when you have committed a crime.)
Let the thread die troll!!!
Doesn't stop the BATF. For them, unfinished metal blanks are recievers for "automatic weapons."
They're a really crummy bunch of people.
Had any state, county or city police agency pulled this number, the FBI would have been all over them, and the feds would have prosecuted the hell out of them(and rightly so)See the Rodney King case.
The FBI supervisor who gave the shoot on sight order and the sniper, Lon Horiuchi(sp)should have been indicted for murder. The new prosecutor of Boundary county has obviously been bought off.
I was a cop for thirty years and I dealt with many "whacked out" folks and didn't shoot any of them. There is a time and a place for killing, and popping that unarmed, baby carrying mom wasn't one of them. Any sniper worth a shit is going to know what he is shooting at, and that sniper had to have known that he was killing an unarmed, baby carrying female. That is UNACCEPTABLE!!! We aren't talking about some surprised street cop having 1/6th of a second to make a shoot/don't shoot decision in crappy lighting. We are talking about a calculated, measured, time to think about it, shot.
Exactly correct. The BATF also lied to the Federal Marshals service telling them that Weaver was a suspected bank robber and had a violent past -- (he didn't).
The FBI got the big hit for Ruby Ridge, but it was the BATF lies that started it all and got a US Marshal, a 12 year old boy and a women killed. Ya, Weaver is a nut, but he was not a dangerous nut.
A couple of years later, the BATF did another grandstand publicity stunt at Waco that got a bunch more people killed.
IMHO, they should have been cleaned out top to bottom and replaced the gung-ho PR/glory hounds with some professional law enforcement personnel.
Still, they are not to be trusted.
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