The Real Murderers: Atheism or Christianity?

Stand to Reason ^ | 1994 | Gregory Koukl

[Dixie republican]

The gentleman from San Francisco probably thinks Hitler was a Christian; but that still doesn't rectify Stalin and Mao. Those two killed more than any Crusades or "victims" of Manifest Destiny ... by far.

[Frapster]

Augh! You've invoked Godwin's Law! ;-)

[goodieD]

amen.

[victim soul]

Anyone can declare himself a Christian -- take a look at Catholics for a Free Choice for starters. However, if that individual doesn't practice and act on The Ten Commandments and the Beatitudes ----- he is in fact non Christian - ipso facto.

[LiteKeeper]

The key point he makes is not are people acting like Christians, but do the Teachings call for killing and violence, and are the people acting consistently with the teachings?

[pollwatcher]

I suppose New Agers and trendy Wiccans would necessarily have to call themselves the kinder, gentler "Quaker" or "Amish" branch of the universal Paganism that regularly produced human/child sacrifices & vivisection, pederasty, torture, arena sport murders, drugged-out orgies, superstition, ignorance and oppression for the many millenia before Christ. If only they would have stuck with tree-hugging and herbal remedies...

[Frapster]

The key point he makes is not are people acting like Christians, but do the Teachings call for killing and violence, and are the people acting consistently with the teachings?

Having heard the argument where it is asserted that more people have been killed in the name of religion or Christianity more than I care to hear - I think the author's overall point is to turn that argument on its ear and demonstrate that when you remove God from the equation violence erupts. Conversely when you keep God in the peace is present.

[berned]

That's not a fair defense. You can't simply say that those people who committed the Crusades or the Inquisition or the witch burnings weren't real Christians.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard people blame Evangelical Born-again Christians for the Inquisition!

I try to explain that Roman Catholicism was responsible for the Inquisition, and that in THOSE days, people who believe as Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson do would have been tortured and burned at the stake right next to Jews.

The Inquisition was one of Satan's most brilliant and diabolical ideas ever. It's the gift that keeps on giving -- to Satan.

[Frapster]

Ah... we must amend your list of atrocious actions. One and possibly two of the things you listed are quite normal and acceptable by modern thinkers today. For example: drugged-out orgies - what's wrong with that? /sarcasm

And then as far as pederasty goes - that is also gaining ground as an acceptable practice. While I find it completely immoral the subject is an excellent example of what we humans can achieve when we remove God from the equation.

[babyface00]

"I try to explain that Roman Catholicism was responsible for the Inquisition"

Isn't that a bit of a stretch? Along the same lines as Christianity is responsible for the Crusades?

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Hitler was every bit as much a Christian as Stalin was.

[Frapster]

I did some research on the role of the Roman Catholic church and there's no doubt that it was under the Roman Catholic church that the inquistions took place. But even modern day Catholic scholars do not deny it - they just simply point out the same thing that this article points out. The inquistion illusrates what happens even when "Christians" remove God from their theology. The teachings of Christianity do not support the behavior of the church at that point and the people who perpetrated the inquisition were Godless.

[Frapster]

I did some research on the role of the Roman Catholic church and there's no doubt that it was under the Roman Catholic church that the inquistions took place.

lol - I really should read my posts more carefully before I post them - talk about stating the patently obvious... haha

[Frapster]

Any thoughts ping?

[rdb3]

The statistics that are the result of irreligious genocide stagger the imagination.

Didn't Stalin say that the murder of one is a tragedy while the murder of millions is a statisic?

[Cruising Speed]

I try to explain that Roman Catholicism was responsible for the Inquisition, and that in THOSE days, people who believe as Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson do would have been tortured and burned at the stake right next to Jews.

I agree except that Jews were exempt from the Inquisition due to the fact they were not Christian, the Inquisition was aimed at stamping out Christian heresy, not Judaism.

[andy_card]

It turns out he was quite supportive of Wicca and indigenous religions which worship the Mother Earth force, Gaia. This is essentially the basic foundation for witchcraft.

Whatever. Regardless of what he believes, he ain't no atheist.

[chance33_98]

Thanks for the ping. Very interesting indeed. I was actually discussing this with a guy (liberal) at work the other night (although it started out as a discussion about Reagan).

I ended up pointing out to him that we (the entire human race) are all guilty of some past terrible act. The Indians would wipe out other whole tribes of Indians (and later Buffalo for money), There have been and continue to be black slave holders in parts of the world (it was not just a white american thing), All the religions of the world have had followers who abused their faith and power which has led to the death of others, atheist leaders have killed millions of people as well.

The groups in our country who continually slam the white man come from groups who have accomplished equally evil things. So instead of blaming races, faiths, and so on we should lay blame squarely on the idiots who have done this regardless of race, religion, etc. Those measures are used by people to justify their own beliefs.

And none of that goes into mitigating factors either - one could do entire studies about the effects of the general beliefs of a populace and how that played a role in whatever event happened: But by focusing solely on that factor we wind up at a conclusion which attacks an entire group of people for their base belief without seeing the truth behind it.

And what is the base belief which has so often destroyed lives? That one group is superior to another and that the only way to make the world a better place is to destroy the inferior group before they destroy you. We act in self defense against a real or perceived threat and take measures to insure our own survival.

So perhaps we should instead look at historical events in that somewhat simple light - why did we kill witches, why did the nazis attack other countries and kill jews, why do islamic countries attack and hate us (and what the rest of the world may not see is that if they ever succeeded in winning they would be next), and the examples go on and on.

This works too in other areas - why do liberals want to force us to believe what they believe, why do they evangelize us and our children: Ideas are like people and groups of people, they see a threat to their existence (real or not) and act to get rid of that threat.

Ok, I am rambling, just got out of bed and need my coffee before I type more :) Thanks for the ping!

[That Subliminal Kid]

this has been posted at least two times already.