[Frumious Bandersnatch]

That's another debate entirely and completely ignores my correction of your erronious allegation that the whole of arizona and new mexico was part of the confederate territory. I will note however for the record that the right of self government supersedes statutory matters.

Say what?  Where did I so allegate?  I merely stated that wishes of the citizens of Albuquerque and Santa Fe were totally ignored by Baylor and the citizens of Tucson and Mesilla.  I also use "New Mexico" to describe the entire territory, since the Arizona territory wasn't created until 1863 - and then looked considerably different from the Confederate vision.  Only by twisting my words can one construe I meant differently.  Although after the fall of Santa Fe and Albuquerque, most of the territory was in Confederate hands for a short time.

Yeah - before secession when the federals were ignoring them. But the second they secede Lincoln's men suddenly find a need to be there and set up camp outside Mesilla to prepare for taking the town. It's funny how things work out like that.

Bull.  Get your facts straight.  Ft. Fillmore already had Union troops in it.  Col. Canby sent more troops to strengthen it when Baylor siezed Ft. Bliss in El Paso.

Sure there was. The only major military force in the region was a union command occupying a fort outside of Mesilla to counter the southern half of the region's confederate government. The leaders of Mesilla sent message to El Paso for relief. Baylor split his army in two, left half there to garrison it, and took the other half to relieve Mesilla in direct response to that request. Shortly after his arrival the larger yankee army attacked Mesilla and was repulsed by Baylor. Your complete ignorance of this event is laughable considering that you purport to know what you are talking about. As for Baylor's expedition, if that does not qualify as a relief expedition, I don't see what else could.

Yes, Lynde did attack Baylor - after Baylor invaded New Mexico.  And I will concede that Baylor knew of the Confederate sympathies of Mesilla.  But he went against Ft. Fillmore because it was a dangerous threat to him.  From www.civilwarhome.com/confederatearizona.htm we have the following:

Baylor quickly assessed the situation in nearby Arizona and determined that Federally-held Fort Fillmore, forty miles upriver, constituted a grave threat to his position.  Rather than wait for an attack, Baylor chose to be the aggressor, after digesting reports of Confederate sympathy in the area, especially in nearby Mesilla. On July 23, with 258 men, Baylor moved upriver and camped within 600 yards of the Federal fort. He had planned a surprise attack next morning, but fort commander Major Isaac Lynde was warned of Baylor's presence by a deserter. Learning of this, Baylor moved instead into Mesilla, where the Texans were greeted enthusiastically. On July 25, Lynde advanced his force of 380 from Fort Fillmore to demand Baylor's surrender.  Baylor's response was, "If you wish the town and my forces, come and take them!" Lynde resolved to do just that, ordering his infantrymen into line while his two mountain howitzers began to shell the town and his mounted troops prepared to charge. As the Federal horsemen approached, carefully aimed shots and volleys from the barricaded Texans and their Mesilla allies began to create confusion. One Yankee horseman was killed and four others were wounded as rifle and shotgun fire ripped into their ranks. As the survivors began to withdraw, the Federal cannoneers came under rebel fire and were soon forced back as well, followed by the Union infantry. The brief battle had resulted in Lynde's loss of three killed and nine wounded, while six Texans were wounded and twenty rebel horses died in the bombardment. Baylor's men carefully followed the Yankees to the fort and began preparations to attack. During the next day, as the Federals feverishly dug defensive trenches and prepared obstructions, Baylor sent riders to Fort Bliss for reinforcements and replacement horses. That evening, the Arizona Guards, a local militia unit that had assisted in Baylor's defense, infiltrated Fort Fillmore and made off with 85 cavalry horses and 26 mules. This loss so discouraged Lynde that he decided, instead of trying to defend the fort, to evacuate his command to the nearest concentration point, Fort Stanton, some 80 miles to the northeast.

The narrative goes on to talk about the disastrous retreat of Lynde, but the point is that Ft. Fillmore was attacked by the Texans from the direction of Mesilla.  The federals didn't attack Mesilla and apparently had no plans to do so.  Baylor attacked Ft. Fillmore because he saw it as a military threat and because he was assured that he wouldn't get any civilian opposition.

The yankees approached it on July 24, 1861 and demanded the town's surrender. Baylor, who had been welcomed there by the openly confederate town, refused and the yankees opened fire. Baylor repulsed them.  Read about it here http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/MM/qfm4.html

Yeah, but you were saying that Baylor went to help Mesilla because it was being threatened by Lynde at Ft. Baylor.  Lynde didn't threaten to attack the town until Baylor was already in it.  Furthermore Lynde didn't demand the town's surrender.  He demanded Baylor's surrender.  Please get your facts straight.  Your link says that Baylor invaded New Mexico and seized Ft. Fillmore.  That's it.  It doesn't support your contention that Mesilla was under threat of Union forces prior to Baylor's arrival.  But then that's typical.

It was a bold move, but by all indications Baylor's presence was welcomed with open arms by the people of Mesilla. They celebrated his arrival and added troops to his ranks to pursue the yankees after the city was saved.

So you condone that in Baylor which you would condemn in Lincoln.  Interesting.  And also, what did he save Mesilla from?  Until Baylor entered Mesilla, the town was in no danger from Union troops.

Nonsense. Baylor did see Fillmore's presence as a threat to his command at Bliss, which was one of the reasons he responded to Mesilla's calls. But his plans to attack it did not come through and he went to Mesilla to prepare it for a defense. Shortly after the federals arrived and demanded the city's surrender. Baylor said no and the yankees attacked the city, not the other way around as you suggest.

True.  This is a my bad.  This is what happens when my fingers outrun my brain, and for this I apologize.  The true order of events was that Baylor camped about 600 yards from Ft. Fillmore planning to attack it, but surprise was denied him due to a deserter.  So he occupied Mesilla instead.  Lynde called on him to surrender, which he refused.  Lynde then commenced a disastrous attack.  After failing in his attack, Lynde then ordered an evacuation in the night.  Baylor caught up with Lynde later and slaughtered his rather inebriated group of soldiers.  Satisfied?

The document expresses an intended neutrality, but it was not broken for the reason you allege and quite to the contrary. The Cherokees specifically listed a lengthy string of grievances against the North that had happened in the wake of secession.

That's my point.  Initially, the Five Civilized Tribes were nervous about situation and expressed a desire for strict neutrality.  Other tribal documents also express this desire (and no I don't have the links to them).  As the federal troop were withdrawn to the east and southern troops entered Indian territory, sentiment changed to favor the south - quite understandable, given the conditions.  When Captain Pike (a southerner) was sent to Oklahoma in may of 1861 to negotiate treaties with the 5 civilized tribes, the Choctaws, Chickasaws and Seminoles readily agreed, but only a fraction of the Creeks agreed (they were very much pro-Union) and Chief John Ross managed to keep the Cherokees officially neutral, only reluctantly signing on to the confederate cause October.  But during the war, the tension between Stand Watie (pro confederate) and Ross (pro union) was very much in evidence and culminated in the destruction of Ross' house by Stand Watie and in the death of several relatives of Stand Watie by Ross supporters.  As a matter of fact, many of the Indians fought on both sides at one time or another.

While I grant you that the North's Col. Phillips did not win any friends amongst the Indians by his tactics, neither did the south's Col. Cooper glorify his cause by his tactics against the Upper Creeks.  In fact, Col. Cooper's actions probably lead directly to the downfall of Confederate efforts much sooner than would have been otherwise due to the fact that Kansas and Wisconsins were so inflamed that they raised 6 Kansas regiments, 1 Wisconsin Regiment and 2 Indian Regiments to retake the Indian territory.  OTOH, If Col. Phillips had the sense that G-d gave an ant, the territory would have fallen much sooner.

And I responded that your claim of this was based almost entirely on Andy Jackson, the same man who put down the earliest beginnings of the drive for southern independence. As far as I'm concerned (and I believe many southerners would back me on this) you can have all of Jackson you want cause we certainly don't want him.

He was still a southerner.

[GOPcapitalist]

Seens you've been busy today. Let's see, where to start...

Bull. Get your facts straight. Ft. Fillmore already had Union troops in it.

My facts are already straight. Yours however are not. The federals in the region converged at Fillmore to compose the only major army in the region after it had seceded. As the region was confederate, that army was hostile and the people there wanted it gone. Therefore they welcomed the arrival of their side's army under Baylor to do exactly that.

Yes, Lynde did attack Baylor - after Baylor invaded New Mexico.

Since when does moving an army of a region's own political affiliation into that region under the overwhelming suppor of its people for the purpose of ridding them of the presence of a nearby force belonging to the enemy that has remained congregated there against the wishes of those same people constitute "invasion" under any definition of the word, Lincoln's included?

The narrative goes on to talk about the disastrous retreat of Lynde, but the point is that Ft. Fillmore was attacked by the Texans from the direction of Mesilla. The federals didn't attack Mesilla and apparently had no plans to do so.

Did you not read your own site's narrative? I quote:

"On July 25, Lynde advanced his force of 380 from Fort Fillmore to demand Baylor's surrender. Baylor's response was, "If you wish the town and my forces, come and take them!" Lynde resolved to do just that, ordering his infantrymen into line while his two mountain howitzers began to shell the town and his mounted troops prepared to charge."

Sounds like an attack on Mesilla to me! It's also why the only major engagement there was called the Battle of Mesilla.

Baylor attacked Ft. Fillmore because he saw it as a military threat and because he was assured that he wouldn't get any civilian opposition.

He was also assured that the civilians supported the move, and in fact they had asked him to do it and added their own men to his ranks to rid their countryside of a hostile army of yankee invaders. Again, did you not read your own web site's narrative? I quote:

"That evening, the Arizona Guards, a local militia unit that had assisted in Baylor's defense, infiltrated Fort Fillmore and made off with 85 cavalry horses and 26 mules."

That sounds like a bit more than simply being assured that the civilians wouldn't oppose him. What REALLY happened is that they wanted Baylor there, took up arms along side him as part of his forces, defended the city with him, and helped him in pursuit of the yankees AFTER they were repulsed in their failed attempt to take the city while firing of the first shots.

Yeah, but you were saying that Baylor went to help Mesilla because it was being threatened by Lynde at Ft. Baylor.

No. I said and maintain that Baylor went to Mesilla at the request and open welcoming of its people, who did not want the hostile army of a foreign nation occupying strategic control over their territory. I also presume you mean Fort Fillmore.

Lynde didn't threaten to attack the town until Baylor was already in it.

But he did initiate the battle by attacking the town when Baylor got there, and his presence there alone as the only sizable army in the region placed that region under Lynde's military control against the wishes of its people.

Furthermore Lynde didn't demand the town's surrender. He demanded Baylor's surrender.

You are clearly grasping at straws in despiration with this one. Baylor's troops set up their defensive position in the town with the town's support. Mesilla added its own militia to their ranks to prepare the defense. Lynde arrived and demanded that Baylor surrender the city and his forces defending it. YET AGAIN, your own web site's narrative even indicates this fact while exposing your erronious history:

"Baylor's response was, "If you wish the town and my forces, come and take them!" Lynde resolved to do just that, ordering his infantrymen into line while his two mountain howitzers began to shell the town and his mounted troops prepared to charge."

Please get your facts straight.

They are straight. As your own chosen web site's narrative indicates, your's are not though.

It doesn't support your contention that Mesilla was under threat of Union forces prior to Baylor's arrival.

You are grasping at straws again, and in doing so ignoring the most basic concepts of military movement. An army occupying the strategic command point over a region control's that region. The yankees occupied the point commanding the region around Mesilla and were the only sizable army in that region until Baylor came along. Therefore they militarily controlled the region. Baylor's arrival and open welcoming by the confederate city of Mesilla allowed that force to be countered, and when the yankees acted to suppress the newly reinforced Mesilla, they were defeated.

So you condone that in Baylor which you would condemn in Lincoln.

Not in the least. Baylor marched an army into a confederate region at the request and full support of the people of that region to remove the presence of a hostile army occupying the command over it. He set up defensive works around the city to prepare it for an assault and to prepare himself to drive the hostile army out of the confederate city's region. That is not "invasion" under any reasonable definition of the word including Lincoln's.

Lincoln on the other hand sent hostile armies to occupy confederate regions against the will of the confederate people and with sanction to use force to suppress those people. That is, by Lincoln's own definition, "invasion."

And also, what did he save Mesilla from?

Immediately, he saved them from an assault on the town by a hostile army. Strategically, he liberated their region from the hostile army that controlled it against Mesilla's wishes.

Until Baylor entered Mesilla, the town was in no danger from Union troops.

So the fact that a hostile army occupied the military command over the region against the wishes of Mesilla's people does not mean they are under any threat?

True. This is a my bad. This is what happens when my fingers outrun my brain, and for this I apologize.

Apology accepted. Are we on the same page now as far as events went?

The true order of events was that Baylor camped about 600 yards from Ft. Fillmore planning to attack it, but surprise was denied him due to a deserter. So he occupied Mesilla instead. Lynde called on him to surrender, which he refused. Lynde then commenced a disastrous attack. After failing in his attack, Lynde then ordered an evacuation in the night. Baylor caught up with Lynde later and slaughtered his rather inebriated group of soldiers. Satisfied?

I'm not aware of any "slaughter" you speak of unless it's something I've not seen. What I do know is that Lynde abandoned his fort shortly after the battle and began a retreat to the next fort up. Baylor then cut them off on their trail by taking a shorter pass around it and Lynde surrendered his forces without a fight.

That's my point. Initially, the Five Civilized Tribes were nervous about situation and expressed a desire for strict neutrality. Other tribal documents also express this desire (and no I don't have the links to them).

Nor do I dispute that. On a similar note, some of the more moderate CSA states did not secede until Lincoln started to invade, arrest legislatures, shut down opposition and the sort. And while you are correct to note that both unionist and secessionist efforts were made in the Indian territories as was the case in most confederate states as well, in the end they fell on the side of the confederates. You may not like that it happened that way, but nevertheless it did.

He was still a southerner.

Yep, and those great "allies" of the Indians, W.T. Sherman and Abe Lincoln were both northerners.