Heaven, according to Newsweek: Hal Lindsey responds to portrayal of paradise as a fairy tale

WorldNetDaily.com ^ | Wednesday, August 7, 2002 | Hal Lindsey

[exmarine]

Allah is a false God and Islam is a religion of hatred and violence. All you have to do is look to their founder to see that. Allah and the God of the bible cannot both be true - ever hear of the law of Non-contradiction? Think on that.

[Lamont Cranston]

Everyone knows that in order for an atheist to be consistent, he must also be a moral relativist.

The biblical passage I just provided, clearly shows that the Bible-believing Christian must also be a moral relativist. So what's the problem?

[Mike Darancette]

That's quite an assumption to make.

For my Atheist friends there are absolutes, you were born and you will die.

[steve-b]

Suppose you were a judge in a superior court and your son or brother was arrested for say, grand theft auto...suppose he was brought before you...suppose his buddy said to throw him (the buddy) in jail instead and let the son go -- would you do it?

[exmarine]

It shows nothing of the sort. God ordered Saul through his prophet Samuel to kill teh Amalekites. If it comes from God, it is absolute, not relative. Relativism is the offsrping of atheism, not belief in the God of the bible. That is 100% certain. Relativism is the belief that the individual decides what is right or wrong - mere personal preference. However, relativism can be extended out to culture or society or government, but in all these cases, the morals are relative to men.

[steve-b]

I am a theist (Christian) and I know that meaning and morals do not originate in human thought - they flow from God's person and character.

God just told me that meaning and morals arise from standing on your head for 10 minutes every day. Explain how you -- without recourse to human thought -- can reject (or accept, for that matter) this claim.

[Lamont Cranston]

So what's the problem with this verse? It's the same principle as with the Canaanites. The Amalekites were a wicked evil people who murdered the Israelites and deserved what they got. Next.

The problem is that the verse shows that God's morality (and thus the Christian's ) is just as relative as the atheist's: sometimes it's okay to kill babys, sometimes it's not. You may also be interested in reading the story of Rahab the harlot (look it up), which shows that God also is morally relative on the subject of lying.

[steve-b]

God ordered Saul through his prophet Samuel to kill teh Amalekites.

The response of most sensible people to a claim that God told you to kill somebody is to provide the claimant with a coat with sleeves that tie in the back.

[exmarine]

No, because (1) he must pay for his own crimes (as do you); and (2) no ordinary man can die for the sins of others and satisfy the justice of God. Why? Because all men are soiled by sin. The sacrifice must be perfect and sinless - as in Jesus Christ. Nice try...

[exmarine]

Well, the stories of the bible are traceable by archeology pal. It's the most accurate history book every written.

[aruanan]

Yes, and the Bible tells us that God punished King Saul for not killing little children, as he was commanded to do. So God is hardly the answer to that issue.

No, he punished King Saul (well, took the kingship away from him) for not killing King Agag and taking the livestock rather than for refraining from "killing little children". It appears that your understanding of the theological issues involved (as evidenced by your ongoing rant about "moral relativism") is as spotty as your knowledge of the Bible.

[Lamont Cranston]

Relativism is the belief that the individual decides what is right or wrong - mere personal preference.

Yes, and since God is an individual who sometimes decides that baby killing is right, and sometimes wrong, he is morally relative--and so are you.

[SteamshipTime]

From II Sam. 21:
1 Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: 1 Sam. 10.1 now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD.

2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Am'alek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Ex. 17.8-14 · Deut. 25.17-19

3 Now go and smite Am'alek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

With a little effort, you could also track down the one that says you can stone your children to death if they are disobedient.

Grave errors result from substituting religion for spirituality. And you also are repeating a very shallow and erroneous interpretation of existentialism.

[Lamont Cranston]

Is killing babies always wrong, or only sometimes wrong?

[SteamshipTime]

Allah is a false God and Islam is a religion of hatred and violence. All you have to do is look to their founder to see that. Allah and the God of the bible cannot both be true - ever hear of the law of Non-contradiction? Think on that.

That's really funny. They say the same thing about you.

[Lamont Cranston]

It appears that your understanding of the theological issues involved (as evidenced by your ongoing rant about "moral relativism") is as spotty as your knowledge of the Bible.

You should also read the story of Rahab the harlot, which shows that God blessed Rahab for telling a lie to the officials of Jericho. More moral relativsm, since lying is apparently fine in some cases--certainly not absolute!

[whattajoke]

Many people do pillage and rape and kill little children -0read the papers lately? Do you think these people have God in their consciences?

You are kidding, right? I will venture to guess that there are just as many christians who commit crimes as non christians...its simply absurd to posit otherwise. While fundies believe catholics are all idol worshipping heathens, they are still christians; and if 10% of the pedophilia accusations are true, then your stated position that christians are somehow morally "better" is out the window. But that was too easy. (and, of course, its all too easy to say, "but everyone sins and if they know Jesus and ask for forgiveness, then all is ok." I happen to think that is a pathos that destroys people. In other words, true christians need not suffer any earthly consequences because god is the true judge. Lame.

I am atheist, I have been for a long time, and I will always be one. Actually, I prefer the term, "non-theist" because the whole "debate" is so silly to me that I wouldn't concern myself with it if were not so prevalent in our culture.

I will always be confounded by your (and many others') assertion that goodness comes from (christian god). You are thereby discounting billions of people around the globe as incapable of being "good." In your world, everyone is "bad" except (mostly American) christians. Hmmm, a small flaw I suppose. I feel love, I feel grief, I feel every emotion you do. Where do these emotions come from? I'll have to consult a neuroscientist for that answer. But doesn't the fact that I feel these things and do good deeds show, at least on the surface, that non theists can indeed be "good?" I certainly think so.

And as far as being "arrogant," I would turn around and accuse fundies of the same crime. In all the universe, of all the planets, of all the earthlings, of all the religious folks, of all the christians, only one particular branch is capable of acheiving heaven. That, my friend, is the height of arrogance.

[Leonard210]

Once again I must ask... is your belief in god the only thing keeping you from running naked in the streets raping and pillaging innocent children? Of course not. I don't mean for this to be a personal attack of any kind, I just thought that using your screen name was more effective.

Thinking about God is of no moral value, you are correct. The laws that are enforced by any group of people are and always have been "the only thing keeping you from running naked in the streets raping and pillaging innocent children?" If, as your retorical question suggests, you claim no external authority for the laws you propose, then you are indeed a perfect human being. Would that all humans possessed the same perfect understanding as you. Yet, running in the streets naked is, in itself, a harmless practice, and "raping and pillaging innocent children" as we are seeing daily, is only raping and pillaging if there was no consent on the part of the raped and pillaged. And while you may ridicule my analogy you can not deny that there are men and women in our congress today who are as perfect as you yet have beliefs closer to my analogy than to yours. The fact that you, without reference to God, have concluded that "raping and pillaging innocent children" is morally intolerable, is laudable. I am not so perfect. I have my own views as to what is morally intolerable. Some may be more conservative, some more liberal than yours. I therefore look to an established set of standards to advise and direct. I believe those standards were instructed by God. You, however, can not deny that they were established thousands of years ago at the hand of a political leader referred to today as Moses. I believe this political leader has demonstrated that his wisdom far surpassed the thinking of not only his day, but the present as well. It is he who claimed that his wisdom came from not a god, but a specific God who had specific and unchangeable directions for human beings.

Your political leaders claim personal superiority of thought without reference to God. Their superiority of thought is individual (specific to themselves) and changeable. Good luck with that.

[editor-surveyor]

"The bible is very clear, God made earth to be His home, and in time He will claim it. His favorite place anywhere in all his creation is Jerusalem. It is where his holy City will be located."

Not exactly,

God has promised to destroy the earth and the heavens with feverant heat, and then to provide a new Jerusalem. - This world will not be here much longer (another 1000 years?).

[Johnny Shear]

Thanks for your response...I appreciate your honesty. But, I must call you on something (If you chose to answer this time)...

If I'm not mistaken, your religion (Which I ASSUME is Fundemental Chritianity) states that ONLY those people who have "Accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior" will go to heaven. And, you don't believe that Catholics do this or have done this (As your beliefs state it MUST be done to be "Saved")...

So, Mother Theresa (Just to name one of the BILLIONS of "Good People" who have inhabited this earth over the years) didn't do what your religion preaches MUST be done...So, she MUST be in Hell. There is NO gray area here (Unless you're Catholic and take Pergitory into account ;-) ).

As stated...I'm am religious and I support all religions as good things...I just refuse to accept that someone like The Pope, Gandhi, my Grandmother and Mother Theresa are burning in hell because they didn't worship like you while they were on earth.

No offense but I don't expect you to answer my question directly...I really don't. I only expect more metaphores (Again, NO disrespect, just honesty) because I have posed this queston to people of all faiths and have NEVER been given a direct answer...


And just for fun I'll throw this example out too for anyone to answer....

The Pope, Billy Grahm (I think he represents your religion, doesn't he?), The Head of the Jewish Religion, The Head of the Muslim Religion and the Heads of all other Religions are to be taken into account for this question...

I KNOW that each of these VERY GOOD men (Or women) KNOW their faith is the ONE TRUE faith...I have NO DOUBT that they believe what they preach...And I have NO DOUBT that they are good, honest God fearing people who have done NOTHING but good throughout their lives and have worshiped in a way they KNOW is correct. (Just like you).

But guess what...Only ONE of them can be correct...That is simple FACT unless there are multiple Gods. So, the rest are doomed...According to their individual scriptures.

The question is...Doesn't it make more sense to believe that all of them are "Close" in their beliefs and will be rewarded for the good they have done rather than believe that all but one of them will BURN IN HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY???

This is another question that I have never gotten an aswer too...Just more metaphores and people dancing around the issue...