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U.S. Arsenal Refill on Overdrive as Powell, Rumsfeld Split
NewsMax.com ^ | 8/04/02 | Carl Limbacher and NewsMax.com Staff

Posted on 08/05/2002 3:55:48 AM PDT by kattracks

Newsweek reports this week that although the war with Iraq has not begun, "So far the big battles are in Washington, not Baghdad."

The magazine notes that "Secretary of State Colin Powell, the only combat veteran among Bush’s senior aides, is said to be determined that if U.S. troops are committed, they go in with overwhelming force. Vice President Dick Cheney (who had student and parent deferments during Vietnam) and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld (a Navy pilot in the years between Korea and Vietnam) are eager to finish the job Bush’s father started when he was president."

Both Cheney and Rumsfeld believe far fewer troops are needed for an Iraqi invasion.

Newsweek also claims that "By Rumsfeld’s orders, even the Joint Chiefs of Staff have been shut out of the planning process - a decision that has only added to the generals’ unhappiness."

Despite the Washington battles, the U.S. is in high gear for war.

The magazine states:

Read more on this subject in related Hot Topics:
Bush Administration Saddam Hussein/Iraq War on Terrorism



TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: afghanistan; buildup; cheney; drawdown; iraq; mediabias; military; munitions; newsweek; petroleumreserves; powell; rummy; rumsfeld; spr
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To: sam_paine
I haven't done a search yet, but wonder if any others of
the Presidents top people are also Vet's, ignored by the writer.
Do you know?
21 posted on 08/05/2002 7:44:16 AM PDT by ASA Vet
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To: kattracks
1. General McClellan Powell apparently missed the lesson about economy of force while at OCS and staff college.

2. We don't have the same military in 2002 that we did in 1991. We are down to 10 Army divisions and 3 Marine divisions, and committing 250K soldiers to an operation in Iraq would make us extremely vulnerable elsewhere.

3. The reference to Powell's military experience is a logical fallacy of the appeal-to-authority type. Anyone with a passing knoweldge of military history could name dozens--nay hundreds--of people with combat experience who had no strategic sense or insight whatsoever. Moreover, one common deficiency among professional soldiers is that their experience so dominates their thinking that it blinds them to changes that make this experience less relevant, and can prove to be a liability in the face of important technological and doctrinal changes--the "fighting the last war" problem.

4. Saddam's only real threat to us is his bio and chem warfare capability. This threat is greater when we mass our forces and take a long time to build them up (a la 1991). Reliance upon speed, maneuver, stealth, and deception in lieu of massive force will minimize our vulnerability to this type of threat. Powell's preferred approach would maximize it.

Rumsfeld et al advocate substituting imagination, information dominance, and technology for numbers. This exploits our comparative advantage. Overwhelming force need not require overwhelming numbers.

Powell seems mired in the past, unable to escape the bounds of his own experience. He is an exemplar of a longstanding tradition in the US Army that advocates reliance on mass to achieve victory and distrusts operational innovation or risk-taking--see Russell F. Weigley's Eisenhower's Lieutenants for a devastating critique of this mindset. He is a Bradley, not a Patton. This is not a compliment. (See Victor Davis Hanson's review of Carlo D'Este's new Eisenhower biography in the most recent National Review or his recent book that has some pretty revealing things to say about Bradley--and which come eerily close to describing Powell.)

22 posted on 08/05/2002 8:00:34 AM PDT by financeprof
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To: ASA Vet
Well, Tony Principi (Secy of Vet Affairs) is a Vietnam combat vet. But I guess he doesn't have much say on war plans!!

I've looked up Andy Card, Fleischer, Rove, etc, and as far as I can tell, nobody else in the admin has any military experience.
23 posted on 08/05/2002 8:04:22 AM PDT by sam_paine
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To: kattracks
May God bless Powell for his stance. No more vague, fruitcake, military actions like Viet Nam, the Balkins, no more Black Hawk Downs.

Presidents should not be allowed to play with the state of military readiness, and congress should not be allowed to either. There should be a standard that no politican is allowed to mess with.

24 posted on 08/05/2002 8:08:24 AM PDT by MissAmericanPie
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To: MissAmericanPie
Presidents should not be allowed to play with the state of military readiness...

I suppose this is possible if we split hairs.
Sounds silly to apply it to the commander-in-chief.

Change the constitution?

25 posted on 08/05/2002 8:29:14 AM PDT by Publius6961
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To: MissAmericanPie
Powell has a right to his views but with the threat of chemical, nuclear and biological capabilities and the knowledge that we are coming after him - Saddam may have all kind of horrors in place for our soldiers. Why send him huge forces to try his traps on?

I agree with Rumsfeld. Look outside the box, be unpredictable and utilize any new technology we have. The masses of soldiers can come later when needed.

26 posted on 08/05/2002 8:30:23 AM PDT by ClancyJ
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To: MissAmericanPie
Presidents should not be allowed to play with the state of military readiness, and congress should not be allowed to either. There should be a standard that no politican is allowed to mess with.

So, according to you, we should just drop civilian control of the military, and allow them to run their own show? No freakin' way. There's a very good reason that we have civilian control of the military. If allowed to run unchecked, the military can become a government unto itself, unresponsive to civil authority. No good can come of such an arrangement.

Regards,
Snidely

27 posted on 08/05/2002 9:20:56 AM PDT by Snidely Whiplash
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To: financeprof
Saddam's only real threat to us is his bio and chem warfare capability. This threat is greater when we mass our forces and take a long time to build them up (a la 1991). Reliance upon speed, maneuver, stealth, and deception in lieu of massive force will minimize our vulnerability to this type of threat. Powell's preferred approach would maximize it.

When this is all said and done, I would like someone to explain to me why Saddam waited while we moved men and machinery into the area. Why didn't he attack when he had the numerical superiority?

28 posted on 08/05/2002 9:21:33 AM PDT by CIB-173RDABN
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To: Snidely Whiplash
One of the best decisions of the founding fathers, keep the civilians head of the military.
29 posted on 08/05/2002 9:23:02 AM PDT by CIB-173RDABN
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To: ppaul
Well, at least in this instance, he appears to have only one lens cap on. I also like the name tag.
30 posted on 08/05/2002 9:24:01 AM PDT by wcbtinman
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To: ppaul
Where's the MEGA-barf alert for this? Disgusting!
31 posted on 08/05/2002 10:05:39 AM PDT by dcwusmc
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To: CIB-173RDABN
Why didn't he attack when he had the numerical superiority?

Because he and most of rest of the world thought it was
all a bluff, and that the U.S. didn't have the balls to really take large scale military action.

Remember our will as a nation was supposed to have been destroyed by Vietnam.

32 posted on 08/05/2002 10:15:10 AM PDT by ASA Vet
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To: CIB-173RDABN
Part of the problem here is the ominous discord between national strategy and operations we see here. Certainly, the national strategy is set by civilian control - as is constitutionally mandated. However we are wise to consider the lessons learned from Vietnam: when civilians tell the military not only what the objectives are, but the exact manner in which to obtain those objectives, it increases risk. It also destroys the principles of initiative, boldness, and decentralized command & control - the fundamentals of successful manuever warfare.

This idea is in some of the basic theories that Sun Tzu espoused; it appears we have not yet learnt them well.

Another strawman often brought up is that we can achieve victory through the vague notion of 'informational dominance'. What does that mean? As a Marine, I know that informational dominance does little if you do not have the means at your disposal to destroy the enemies' will to fight. History has shown that when it comes down to a battle between hostile wills, massing of firepower and arms upon the enemy is usually required. This can be achieved in different ways - but mere 'information dominance' does not guarantee anything.

33 posted on 08/05/2002 10:21:24 AM PDT by fogarty
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To: fogarty
A well presented and thought out response. I will agree with you that it presents a major problem when the civilian authority attempts to micro-manage a military operation.

Having said that, I still support having elected civilians in control over the military.

Someone once said war was too important to leave to the Generals. The military may become too focus on one aspect of a conflict (military action) and either not be aware of, or care about any other aspect.

There are some ineffiencies with a republic form of government, but that sometimes works in our favor (and of course sometimes works against us.)

34 posted on 08/05/2002 10:34:51 AM PDT by CIB-173RDABN
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To: ASA Vet
Sometimes the simple answer is the correct answer, and you may very well be correct.
35 posted on 08/05/2002 10:36:56 AM PDT by CIB-173RDABN
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To: CIB-173RDABN
Civilian control of the military forces is essential to prevent or forestall or whatever some sort of military junta, agreed. HOWEVER, when the civilians have gotten us into a war, they had BEST listen to the military people as to how best to fight it. As was mentioned, LBJ would DAILY and PERSONALLY approve the list of bombing targets, to the great detriment of our pilots... how many were lost because LBJ would say, "bomb here but not here where the AAA and SAM sites are"? This is NOT a happy-making experience. Or when someone like Henry Kissinger, in his "GEOPOLITICAL" mode, wrote off over 2,000 people just so he could get his Nobel Peace Prize... the prevailing attitude was, they knew the risks when they enlisted or volunteered to serve, so piss on 'em... Nope, THAT kind of civilian "control" is not a good thing for ANYONE... and if it's true that the top military people are being shut out of the planning process, that is scary, because it would mean that politics is going to be the dominant theme, NOT practical planning. That should scare the cr@p out of you. It does me! At times like this it makes me glad my son decided not to enlist!
36 posted on 08/05/2002 11:06:44 AM PDT by dcwusmc
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Comment #37 Removed by Moderator

To: ppaul
Wow, it says "Governor" on his shirt.So he actually got dressed up when he was Governor.I thought I'd seen every picture of the skunk,but this is a new one on me.Spot The Pose? I wonder how long he stood there,for them to get the right angle on his Massive Honker.I think it's all about Donald Rumsfeld keeping a lid on the leaks,which he is more than distressed about.</P>
38 posted on 08/05/2002 11:31:39 AM PDT by Pagey
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To: dcwusmc
I can agree with you 100%, but it does not change my mind.

The way President Johnson conducted the war in Viet Nam bordered on being criminal, and in a just world, he would have been impeached.

You have not presented any alternative that would prevent this from occuring without at the same time preventing a military take over of the country.

Present to me a consitutional ammendment that would keep civilian control, but allow the military to conduct a war any way they see fit.

I don't think you can. So we are stuck with our present system where the President is commander in chief. And, if we have someone incompetant such as Johnson, or Clinton bad things happen. As tragic as that is, it is a risk I would am willing to live with, compared to the alternative.

39 posted on 08/05/2002 11:36:37 AM PDT by CIB-173RDABN
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To: financeprof
Your Post 22: Well stated understanding and analysis. We should not place large numbers of assets in any particular theater due to the possibility of WMD being present.
40 posted on 08/05/2002 11:40:18 AM PDT by semaj
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