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Double warning against Iraq war
The Times (U.K.) ^ | 08/05/2002 | Roland Watson and Melissa Kite

Posted on 08/04/2002 4:58:16 PM PDT by Pokey78

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To: Pokey78
Scowcroft is a very bright man, but in this case he is dead wrong.

The only true way to bring a successful end to the war on terror and bring true peace and stability to the region is to cut the head off the serpent of terror, Saddam Hussein.

Accomplish that goal and the entire middle east will settle into submissive resolution.

Just as the riots in Pakistan after the initial bombing of Afghanistan quickly subsided, a decapitation of Saddam's regime would bring on demoralization of the masses.

Only then could real self-reflection among the masses lead to the same conclusion that Russia accepted as the Soviet Union disintegrated........that is......if you can't beat them, join them.

If their main motivation was only fear, that would be sufficient to start the necessary change.

21 posted on 08/04/2002 5:50:00 PM PDT by CROSSHIGHWAYMAN
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To: CROSSHIGHWAYMAN
He's been wrong before:

Q: The middle of 1990 what was your view of Saddam Hussein?

Scowcroft: We were not preoccupied with Saddam Hussein. What we hoped was to continue the policy of the Reagan Administration, which was first of all a balance between Iran and Iraq and then hoping to perhaps make Saddam Hussein a minimally usefully member of the international community. After the Iran/Iraq war, Iraq had enormous reconstruction, issues and it was our hope that American business would be able to participate in that since Iraq is fundamentally a wealthy nation.

We had no illusions about the character of this man, at all, but we did not see him necessarily as having serious unrequited aggressive aims.

22 posted on 08/04/2002 5:52:53 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: CROSSHIGHWAYMAN
Q: But can I ask you honestly and frankly ... when that decision was being taken, what did you feel?

Scowcroft: ... Deep down ... I wondered if we really had done quite enough, but I did not dissent from the decision, and did not argue that we should go another day.

And in retrospect it would have made little if any difference. That was not a significant decision, whether we stopped then or whether we stopped in another 24 hours, I don't believe.

This I find incredible. He seems to be saying that as National Security Advisor, he offered no opinion on wheter to continue to Baghdad. On further reading, however, it appears he was against it.

23 posted on 08/04/2002 5:59:28 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: CROSSHIGHWAYMAN
"Only then could real self-reflection among the masses lead to the same conclusion that Russia accepted as the Soviet Union disintegrated.."

After August 6, 1945 the Imperial Japanese were really reflective, too!
24 posted on 08/04/2002 6:14:08 PM PDT by cartoonistx
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To: demlosers
[Field Marshal Lord Bramall: “You don’t have licence to attack someone else’s country just because you don’t like the leadership,...We are supposed to be taking a lead on the moral issues of the world.”]

Oh yes you do, if they are trying to kill you. Here's a moral for you Bramall; don't attack other countries and not expect a fatal response in return, including surrogates like terrorists doing your bidding.

Yes.

Regarding Field Marshal Lord Bramall, Prime Minister Chamberlain: "We have peace in our time..."

Source: www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/PRchamberlain.htm

Chamberlain believed that Germany had been badly treated by the Allies after it was defeated in the First World War. He therefore thought that the German government had genuine grievances and that these needed to be addressed. He also thought that by agreeing to some of the demands being made by Adolf Hitler of Germany and Benito Mussolini of Italy, he could avoid a European war.

Anthony Eden, Chamberlain's foreign secretary, did not agree with the policy of appeasement and resigned in February, 1938. Eden was replaced by Lord Halifax who fully supported this policy.

In February, 1938, Adolf Hitler invited Kurt von Schuschnigg, the Austrian Chancellor, to meet him at Berchtesgarden. Hitler demanded concessions for the Austrian Nazi Party. Schuschnigg refused and after resigning was replaced by Arthur Seyss-Inquart, the leader of the Austrian Nazi Party. On 13th March, Seyss-Inquart invited the German Army to occupy Austria and proclaimed union with Germany.

The union of Germany and Austria (Anschluss) had been specifically forbidden by the Treaty of Versailles. Some members of the House of Commons, including Anthony Eden and Winston Churchill, now called on Chamberlain to take action against Adolf Hitler and his Nazi government.

International tension increased when Adolf Hitler began demanding that the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia should be under the control of the German government. In an attempt to to solve the crisis, the heads of the governments of Germany, Britain, France and Italy met in Munich in September, 1938.

On 29th September, 1938, Chamberlain, Adolf Hitler, Edouard Daladier and Benito Mussolini signed the Munich Agreement which transferred to Germany the Sudetenland, a fortified frontier region that contained a large German-speaking population.

When Eduard Benes, Czechoslovakia's head of state, who had not been invited to Munich, protested at this decision, Neville Chamberlain told him that Britain would be unwilling to go to war over the issue of the Sudetenland.

The Munich Agreement was popular with most people in Britain because it appeared to have prevented a war with Nazi Germany. However, some politicians, including Winston Churchill and Anthony Eden, attacked the agreement. These critics pointed out that no only had the British government behaved dishonorably, but it had lost the support of Czech Army, one of the best in Europe.

Czechoslovakia 1939 = Israel 2002

The Brits have been stalwart allies in the past, but they have also been rife with idiot liberal politicians, moreso now than in 1939. And we have saved their butts more than once. Time for the libs to be bathed in the light of the truth.

25 posted on 08/04/2002 6:41:56 PM PDT by Mad_Tom_Rackham
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To: WaterDragon
"We elected him because he has the intelligence and the heart and the love for this country to wage this war successfully." No one knew about the war on election day. Besides, so long as you agree with his values and trust him, what do you care if he's intelligent or not?
26 posted on 08/04/2002 6:43:50 PM PDT by ConsistentLibertarian
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Comment #27 Removed by Moderator

To: Gritty
I guess we need to wait until Saddam kills Americans by the millions before we do anything about it. Why not? that seems to be our strategy with China.
28 posted on 08/04/2002 7:15:10 PM PDT by The Duke
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To: hellinahandcart
A silly nation comprised of silly people, the Brits owe us their existence and should shut their stupid socialist pie holes when it comes to war.

A people that worship a bunch of inbred "Royalty" and have to pay their Government for an annual license to watch broadcast television are in no position to pass judgement on the USA's imminment destruction of Iraq.

29 posted on 08/04/2002 7:22:36 PM PDT by Rome2000
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To: DentsRun
If we're going to war with Iraq, the last thing we need to be doing now is suppressing contrary views.

Well said. LtGen Scowcroft makes a point that military planners well understand but that few armchair hawks want to even hear about. Given the current situation in various places around the world, we run the risk of igniting a fire that we might not be able to extinguish. One does not approach a danger area without considering how to cross it, and how to react if caught in it. We should be very sure about what we are doing, and what we might be getting into. Beforehand.

Only recently, DOD admitted what has been obvious for years -- we are no longer able to simultaneously engage two "Major Regional Contingencies" (i.e.: we can't fight a full two-front war). Much was said about there no longer being such a threat, but the truth is that we'd simply run out of Schlitz if it happened -- and then we'd have to explore other tactical and strategic options. This new reality is playing on the minds of today's planners who must present options for when events deviate from script. It is this new reality to which LtGen Scowcroft prudently alludes.

30 posted on 08/04/2002 7:35:35 PM PDT by Always A Marine
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To: The Duke
Neither China nor Iraq have any desire to kill Americans by the millions for no reason. But both have regional ambitions and would like it very much if we didn't get in their way. That problem needs to be dealt with and can be handled a variety of ways for each country.
31 posted on 08/04/2002 7:40:01 PM PDT by palmer
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To: WaterDragon; sonofliberty2; Scholastic; SLB; Sawdring; belmont_mark; DoughtyOne
Finally, someone high up has the guts to get out the facts and speak truth to power. Mr. Scowcroft, who spoke at my college graduation back when he was in the Bush Administration, is exactly correct. The US is supposed to represent the moral leader of the world. If we attack Iraq after nearly four years of incessant bombing strikes against her without justification, we become the new aggressor on the world stage. America is better than that. Let's stay focused and continue the fight against Islamicist terrorism. Now, is now time to wage a full-scale unjust war of aggression against a country like Iraq, which has never committed any terrorist attacks against us.
32 posted on 08/04/2002 8:19:51 PM PDT by rightwing2
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To: Always A Marine
Only recently, DOD admitted what has been obvious for years -- we are no longer able to simultaneously engage two "Major Regional Contingencies" (i.e.: we can't fight a full two-front war). Much was said about there no longer being such a threat, but the truth is that we'd simply run out of Schlitz if it happened -- and then we'd have to explore other tactical and strategic options.

Running out of Schlitz is right. What I've been worrying about lately is the possibility of a three-front war. We've already got a mini-war in Afghanistan. When we attack Iraq, Saddam, knowing that the end is near, will fire biological and chemical weapons at Israel. She will respond with everything she has, including possibly nuclear weapons. Other folks would certainly join in and in short order the whole mideast could be engulfed in war. In the meantime, China, seeing an unparalled opportunity, could make good on its long standing threat to "re-unify" Taiwan with the Peoples Republic.

Despite all this I'm not necessarily saying we should stay out of Iraq. I'm just saying this is one time we sure ought to look before we leap, given the lielihood of landing in deep kimchee.

33 posted on 08/04/2002 8:43:35 PM PDT by DentsRun
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To: DentsRun
Despite all this I'm not necessarily saying we should stay out of Iraq. I'm just saying this is one time we sure ought to look before we leap, given the lielihood of landing in deep kimchee.

Agree; perhaps we should attack, but I am not yet convinced of the justification or of the necessity. By the way, your parting allusion points to another miscreant who could pile on in a crisis -- North Korea. Even starving men can pull lanyards and rain death on Seoul. That's my last pleasant thought for the day. Cheers...

34 posted on 08/04/2002 9:14:24 PM PDT by Always A Marine
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To: jbind
" I don't see that expressing a dissenting view on a public policy issue is an act of personal betrayal"

You hit the nail right on the head. I wish more people on this site saw things as you do.

Well thanks.

35 posted on 08/04/2002 9:26:49 PM PDT by DentsRun
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To: ex-snook
Scowcroft's opinion is based purely on the diplomatic scene. Being a general displays a sense of duty [unless it was a political promotion, such as that admiral who 'investigated twa 800]. But being a general does not mean you have deep insights into Middle East politics. Even the Arab shieks are left guessing all the time. I wonder how much time Scowcroft has spent there?
36 posted on 08/05/2002 2:53:15 AM PDT by Arthur Wildfire! March
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To: Pokey78
How will the Second Coming take place without a mideast firestorm ?

Bring it on !


BUMP

37 posted on 08/05/2002 3:59:34 AM PDT by tm22721
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