[vannrox]

This is not to say Hitler did not value gun control. After having occupied Russian territory Hitler said:

Der größte Unsinn, den man in den besetzen Ostgebieten machen könnte, sei der, den unterworfenen Völkern Waffen zu geben. Die Geschicte lehre, daß alle Herrenvölker untergegangen seien, nachdem sie den von ihnen unterworfenen Volkern Waffen bewilligt hatten.

[The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms. History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so.]

[sheik yerbouty]

That quote about says it all.

[VadeRetro]

The end notes seriously undercut the article, yes. Read also, Mila 18 by Leon Uris or anything else reasonably accurate about the Warsaw Ghetto uprising.

[inquest]

What this article fails to mention is that the Nazis did make good use of the Weimar gun-control laws. The old government required registration of every gun owner. The Nazis then used those registration lists to simply confiscate weapons from those they didn't want armed. That the gun-control statutes were initially enacted against the Nazis only makes the irony more supreme - and the lesson for us more instructive. As such, the article misses the whole point. It's not that gun control, or other consitutional protections, exist to restrain a truly evil and power-hungry government, but to restrain moderately responsible governments from hastily enacting measures and precedents that we'd very much regret later.

Further, I'd have to see more evidence that these laws were in any way instrumental in keeping the Nazis at bay. If it was already at the point where the government couldn't control them, then I fail to see what good a gun-control law would have done. The Nazis would have simply circumvented it, just like our own criminals do.

Finally, it's impossible to speculate on how history might have been different if no such registration lists existed for the Nazis to go on, but the fact that they considered it worthwhile to confiscate people's guns, suggests to me that they considered it a threat to their power for people to own guns.

[chuknospam]

Hmmm, this person bases their entire article on only two sources that are likely watered down, skewed & interpreted. I offer the research by Stephen Halbrook,PhD far more indepth, 20 sources, many are original documents. http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/registration_article/registration.html

[norton]

"Gun control was not initiated at the behest or on behalf of the Nazis - it was in fact designed to keep them, or others of the same ilk, from executing a revolution against the lawful government. In the strictest sense, the law succeeded - the Nazis did not stage an armed coup."

Point of order!
The Brown Shirts used clubs and knives fairly effectively and were wont to parade around in caravans of uniformed thugs posing as a popular army. Those laws passed to 'keep them down' worked only to keep the level of violence at a more savage level. Once they had a grip on power, an unarmed populace was in no position to oppose them (assuming it would have chosen to do so)...

A citizenry that is capable of defending itself is in FACT the last barrier to a dictatorial government regardless of how that government came to power.

The Warsaw Ghetto should be sufficient clue to the impact - a very few armed resistors just may have changed history.

[parsifal]

Author makes many good points I had never considered. If true, us gun nuts need to leave the Nazi thing out of our arguments. parsy the armed and dangerous.

[El Gato]

The fact remains that the Nazi's did use the 1928 law to disarm their opponents, once they took the reins of power. While it's true that German Jews, being good Germans and due to the factors given, were not likely to rebel early on in what would have at first appeared as just another pogrom, who can say what they might have done, had they been armed, once the true nature of events became clear? It would have taken just one WW-I veteran sniper to have changed the course of European (and American) history. It could also have been some other target of the Nazi's, say a Gypsy, who did not have the Jews history of submission going again him..or her.

Then there are the Jews and others from the conquered eastern countries. There resistance might not have changed the course of events directly, but it would have tied down a bunch more troops, if more had acted like those few in the Warsaw Ghetto did. That in turn would likely have shortened the war, saving lives on all sides.





Of course the Jews

[IronJack]

"German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order." -- Adolph Hitler, 1938

Let us rewrite Posse Comitatus so that we may deploy American military forces to keep the peace in the event of a domestic terrorist attack. -- Sen. Joe Biden, 2002

[IronJack]

If this is supposed to neutralize the argument that a disarmed populace aided Nazi totalitarianism, it is a dismal failure. Nowhere does it refute the notion that an unarmed citizenry is easier to (mis)manage than their armed counterparts, or that domestic insurrection is a formidable obstacle to authoritarian rule.

This "article" is a waste of electrons for anyone but gun haters.

[JZoback]

bump

[Tallguy]

There is little or no european tradition of private gun ownership as there is in the US. Therefore, this argument is factually true but does not really address the greater question.

I would like to ask the author what he thinks would have happened if just a few Jewish shop owners had posessed firearms. Would Krystalnacht have happened, or would it have been nipped in the bud when one of the Brownshirt flying columns ran smack into an armed shopkeeper? To jump to another analogy: how many government agents were tied down, and for how long, by David Koresh? I'm only focusing on the armed standoff. See my point? Private gun ownership need only be legal -- it does not necessarily have to be very widespread -- to have an impact in checking government action.

[JZoback]

The simple conclusion is that there are no lessons about the efficacy of gun control to be learned from the Germany of the first half of this century.

Even if this statement is true, we do not need to go back in time to learn these lessons

Great Britain and Australia are two perfect examples of guns control laws reaping the dreaded "unintended conquesences" maxim today, right now with terrible results

[brityank]

The only feasible argument that gun control favored the Nazis would be that the 1928 law deprived private armies of a means to defeat them. The basic flaw with this argument is that the Nazis did not seize power by force of arms, but through their success at the ballot box (and the political cunning of Hitler himself). Secondary considerations that arise are that gun ownership was not that widespread to begin with, and, even imagining such ubiquity the German people, Jews in particular, were not predisposed to violent resistance to their government.

The same can be said for most peoples and nations:

... Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

Less than twenty percent of the populous were in some favor of the usurpation of authority started in the 1770's, and probably most did not favor the results after the Revolution; but the enlightened attitude of the Founding Fathers that created the system of government they laid out in the Constitution swung the tide of the people to their favor.

[handk]

The following was transcribed from "The Hour of the Time", hosted by William Cooper:

"Listen to this very carefully. Scoot up next to your radio. I don't want you to miss a word. I don't want you to miss anything. I have told you over and over and over again, for years. I wrote it in my book (click on book cover image below to access Amazon.com, the book's title is "Behold A Pale Horse"); my book's been in print for years, that this is a Nazi thing. The Nazis are coming. Socialism. Nazi means, "National Socialism". The Nazi Party was called the "National Socialist Workers Party."

"The Most Shop-Lifted Book in America!"

Do you understand what I'm telling you? There is no such thing as oppression on the right. There is no such thing as Nazis on the right. There are no Fascists on the right. A scale measures opposing states.

All the way on the left you have total control, all the way on the right you have the absence of any control. All the way on the left it's called "Communism," where the state owns and controls everything, even you, and even your underwear. It's where you pretend to work and they pretend to pay you. It's where if you say the wrong word you disappear forever. It's where they have millions and millions of people in labor camps doing slave labor. It's where pogroms are held and whole populations are murdered, slaughtered, one-by-one, any political opposition is murdered.

All the way on the right is total absence of control. it's called anarchy! Anarchy is terrible. it means if I see your shirt and I want it, I just shoot you in the head and take it, and nobody cares. Except you, and you're dead.

In between is the range between these two things. Just above Communism are Nazis. Somewhere in the middle is a Republic, which is the United States of America. This is not a democracy, never was, it was never intended to be. If you don't believe it, read the writings of our Forefathers, who warned us against democracy."

[Reading]: "During the past several months in the American press, the Democrats have frequently denounced the Republicans and other people on the right -- the militias, patriots, Christians -- as Nazis, due to their attempt to control runaway federal spending. How very ironic! I remember the Nazis, and let me share with you a little about them and recall some of their exploits."

[Cooper speaking for himself]: "This letter appeared in the Arlington Washington Times, on June 7, 1995. It's a letter to the editor, and I'll tell you who wrote it at the end. Listen to every word ladies and gentlemen, you're not going to believe what you hear, but it is absolutely true!"

[Words appearing in brackets below and bold-faced are those of William Cooper, adding comments as he reads the letter]:

"During the past several months in the American press, the Democrats have frequently denounced the Republicans and other people on the right -- the militias, patriots, Christians -- as Nazis, due to their attempt to control runaway federal spending. How very ironic! I remember the Nazis, and let me share with you a little about them and recall some of their exploits.

First of all, "Nazi" was gutter-slang for the verb "to nationalize". The Beider-Meinhoff gang gave themselves the moniker during their early struggles. The official title of the Nazi Party was "National Socialist Workers Party of Germany." Hitler and the Brown Shirts advocated the nationalization of education, health care, transportation, natural resources, manufacturing, distribution and law enforcement." [Hello? Anybody home? One ringy-dingy... Does that ring any bells for you folks? Let me continue...]

Hitler came to power by turning the working class, unemployed and academic elite against the Conservative Republic. After Der Fuhrer's election, the Nazi Party ceased being a political conspiracy and was transformed into a fashionable social phenomenon. Party membership was especially popular with educators, bereaucrats, and the press. Being a Nazi was politically correct. They called themselves, and this is an exact quote; "The Children of the New Age of World Order," and looked down their noses at everyone else.

As Hitler accrued more power, he began referring to his critics as; "...the dark forces of anarchy and hatred." Anyone who questioned Nazi high-handedness and the German press was branded a "conservative reactionary."

Joseph Goebbels, Minister of Communications, proclaimed, and I quote exactly; "A New World Order." The Nazi reign of terror began with false news reports on the radio and in the newspapers. Paramilitary groups of Poles, Jews, Bohemians and Gypsies were said to be arming themselves to overthrow the "New World Order," and Hitler demanded that "all good people register their guns so that they wouldn't fall into the hands of terrorists and madmen," and that's a direct quote; "...fall into the hands of terrorists and madmen."

"Right-wing fanatics" of the old order who protested firearms registration were arrested by the SS and put in jail for "fomenting hatred against the government of the German people."

Then the Reichstag [which was the "seat" of the German government, just like the our American equivalent, the U.S. Capitol building in Washington, D.C.] was blown up and Hitler ram-rodded an emergency anti-terrorist act through Parliament that gave the Gestapo extra-ordinary powers. The leader then declared that for the well-being of the German people, all private firearms were to be consfiscated by the Gestapo and the Wermacht [which was the federal law enforcement and the military.]

German citizens who refused to surrender their guns when "the jackboots" Gestapo came calling were murdered in their homes. By the way, the Gestapo was the Federal Marshall service of the Third Reich. The SWAT Team was invented and perfected by the Gestapo to break into the homes of the "enemies of the German people."

When the Polizei, Bewalken (or local police) refused to take away guns from townsfolk, they themselves were disarmed and dragged out into the street and shot to death by the SA and the SS. Those were the Nazi versions of the BATF and the FBI. When several Lutheran ministers spoke out against these atrocities, they were imprisoned and never seen again.

The Gestapo began to confiscate and seize the homes, businesses, bank accounts, and personal belongings of wealthy conservative citizens who had prospered in the old Republic. Pamphleteers who urged revolt against the Nazis were shot on site by national law enforcement and the military.

Gypsies and Jews were detained and sent to labor camps. Mountain roads throughout Central Europe were closed to prevent escape of fugitives into the wilderness and to prevent movement and concealment of partisan resistance fighters.

Public schools re-wrote history and Hitler Youth Groups taught children to report their parents to their teachers for anti-Nazi remarks. Such parents disappeared.

Pagan animism became the State Religion of the Third Reich, and Christians were widely condemned as "right-wing fanatics". Millions of books were burned first, and then people. Millions of them burned in huge ovens after they were first gassed to death. Unmarried women were paid large sums of money to have babies out of wedlock and then given medals for it.

Evil was declared as being good, and good was condemned as being evil. World Order was coming and the German people were going to be the "peacekeepers".

Yes. Indeed. I remember the Nazis, and they weren't republicans or right-wing or patriots or militias, they were Socialists and they were monsters!"

[Cooper]: And this letter was written by Thomas Colton Ruthford from Arlington, Washington. Did any of that sound familiar to you? It is word-for-word what is happening in the United States of America, as I have told you many, many times before.

What happened in Germany during Hitler's rise to power, is exactly what is happening in the United States of America today!

And if you don't want to believe it, and if you want to sit on your lazy sheep butts until they come and drag you out in the street and shoot you, then you go ahead and do it. There's a lot of us who ain't gonna be there with you. Got that? [End of transcript]

Milton William Cooper Born: May 6, 1943 Died: November 6, 2001 Loving Father Loving Husband Loving Friend True Patriot God Bless You Bill. You are Greatly Missed.

Bill & Crusher - Oct. 2001

[Excuse_My_Bellicosity]

"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms. History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so."

I'll bet Kofi Annan has this quote plastered up on the wall of his office.

[Shooter 2.5]

Interesting article but I'm going to cut through the BS.
Gun control means that there were no gun stores in the Warsaw Ghetto.

[scouse]

(there was no Right to Arms in the Constitution of 1919)

However there is a right to arms in the US Constitution

The basic flaw with this argument is that the Nazis (read this as democrats) did not seize power by force of arms, but through their success at the ballot box (and the political cunning of Hitler himself.>(Insert any democrat name you wish)

[FairWitness]

The Second Amendment is not just about owning guns; at bottom, it is about a state of mind that believes that "The People" are in charge of their own safety and protection, including against their own government if necessary. This is a state of mind that the Germans of the 1920's (and most other folks through time) apparently did not have. Far too many Americans of today also do not have this state of mind. The state of mind is as important as having the weapons themselves; insisting on the right, and acting on it to own a weapon keeps the government on notice that they (government) are not (yet) supreme.

[denydenydeny]

The essay is pretty mealy-mouthed in general. As people have noticed, it does not mention gun control policies in the occupied territories, only Germany proper, and therefore draws its conclusions from only a tiny sampling of Nazi territory.

[gatex]

"The simple conclusion is that there are no lessons about the efficacy of gun control to be learned from the Germany of the first half of this century. "

If 10 percent of the more than 6 million killed in concentration camps had each killed a Nazi soldier, the Nazi army would have been significntly affected.