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The Conservative - Libertarian Schism: Freedom and Confidence
FreeRepublic ^ | July 31, 2002 | Francis W. Porretto

Posted on 07/31/2002 5:20:31 AM PDT by fporretto

Each abridgement of liberty has been used to justify further ones. Scholars of political systems have noted this repeatedly. The lesson is not lost on those whose agenda is total power. They perpetually strain to wedge the camel's nose into the tent, and not for the nose's sake.

Many a fine person will concede to you that "liberty is all very well in theory," follow that up with "but," and go on from there to tabulate aspects of life that, in his opinion, the voluntary actions of responsible persons interacting in freedom could never cope with. Oftentimes, free men and free markets have coped with his objections in the recent past, whether he knows it or not. You could point this out to him, provide references and footnotes, and still not overcome his resistance, for it does not depend on the specifics he cited.

His reluctance to embrace freedom is frequently based on fear, the power-monger's best friend.

Fantasist Robert Anton Wilson has written: "The State is based on threat." And so it is. After all, the State, no matter how structured, is a parasitic creature. It seizes our wealth and constrains our freedom, gives vague promises of performance in return, and then as often as not fails to deliver. No self-respecting people would tolerate such an institution if it did not regard the alternatives as worse.

The alternatives are seldom discussed in objective, unemotional terms. Sometimes they are worse, by my assessment, but why should you accept my word for it?

Let it be. The typical American, when he opts for State action over freedom, isn't acting on reasoned conviction, but on fear of a negative result. Sometimes the fear, which is frequently backed by a visceral revulsion, is so strong that no amount of counterevidence can dissolve it, including the abject failure of State action.

We've had a number of recent examples of this. To name only two prominent ones:

  1. The welfare reform of 1996, which limited total welfare benefits to healthy adults and imposed work and training requirements for collecting them, is among the most successful social policy enactments of our time. Huge numbers of welfare recipients have left the dole and assumed paying jobs, transforming themselves from dead loads on society to contributors to it. Yet many politicians and those sympathetic to their aims continue to argue that the welfare system must be expanded, liberalized, and made more generous. A good fraction of these are honestly concerned about the possibility that the 1996 restrictions, the first substantial curtailments of State welfarism since the New Deal, are producing privation among Americans unable to care for themselves.
  2. The War On Drugs, whose lineage reaches back to the 1914 Harrison Narcotics Control Act, has consumed tens of billions of dollars, radically diverted the attentions of state and federal law enforcement, exercised a pernicious corrupting influence on police forces, polluted our relations with several other countries, funded an immense underworld whose marketing practices are founded on bloodshed, and abridged the liberty and privacy of law-abiding Americans, but has produced no significant decrease in recreational drug consumption. Yet many Americans will not even consider the possibility that the War On Drugs should be scaled back or terminated altogether. Most resist from the fear that drug use and violence would explode without limit, possibly leading to the dissolution of civil society.

In either of the above cases, could we but take away the fear factor, there would be essentially no argument remaining.

Fear, like pain, can be useful. When it engenders caution, it can prolong life and preserve health. Conservatives in particular appreciate the value of caution. The conservative mindset is innately opposed to radical, destabilizing change, and history has proved such opposition to be wise.

However, a fear that nothing can dispel is a pure detriment to him who suffers it.

Generally, the antidote to fear is knowledge: logically sound arguments grounded in unshakable postulates and well buttressed by practical experience. Once one knows what brings a particular undesirable condition about, one has a chance of changing or averting it. The great challenge is to overcome fears so intense that they preclude a rational examination of the thing feared.

Where mainstream conservatives and libertarians part company is along the disjunction of their fears. The conservative tends to fear that, without State involvement in various social matters, the country and its norms would suffer unacceptably. Areas where such a fear applies include drug use, abortion, international trade, immigration, cultural matters, sexual behavior, and public deportment. The libertarian tends to fear the consequences of State involvement more greatly. He argues to the conservative that non-coercive ways of curbing the things he dislikes, ways that are free of statist hazards, should be investigated first, before turning to the police.

I call myself a libertarian, but I can't discount conservative fears in all cases -- especially where the libertarian approach to some social ill involves a major change to established ways. Radical transformations of society don't have a rosy history.

Yet conservatives, too, could be more realistic, and could show more confidence in the ideals they strive to defend. As Thomas Sowell has written in discussing the War On Drugs, "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. No use being a damned fool about it."

The past two decades, starting roughly with Ronald Reagan's ascent to national prominence, have laid the foundations for an enduring coalition between freedom-oriented libertarian thinkers and virtue-and-stability-oriented conservative thinkers. Each side needs to learn greater confidence in the other, if we are to establish the serious exchange of ideas and reservations, free of invective and dismissive rhetoric, as an ongoing process. Such confidence must include sufficient humility to allow for respect for the other side's fears -- for an unshakable confidence in one's own rightness is nearly always misplaced. There is little to learn from those who agree with you, whereas much may be learned from those who disagree.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Editorial; Philosophy; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: conservatism; libertarianism; libertarians
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To: clamper1797
"So your above statement may be true for other industries BUT I will assure you that that not the way it is in the electronics industry..."

I have worked in a semiconductor wafer fab for 23+ years. I am the Quality manager. I have plenty of real life experience. I have seen companies over the years do all kinds of stunts to save the bottom line, including layoffs. But if you look at the truly successful companies THESE days, they can't keep jerking people around. They also can't pay people money they don't have, keeping them on the payroll, if they are about to go under financially.

I don't know your company, but I doubt they let any absolutely necessary person go. Perhaps they got out of the business end you were involved with. Perhaps their customer demand has dropped so dramatically, they now have to many people and not enough work. Sorry you are so anry at your company, but you can't expect them to go in debt and go bankrupt, just so some people can remain employed. Eventually the whole company will have to close and EVERYBODY loses there job.

161 posted on 08/03/2002 10:23:11 AM PDT by Bob Mc
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To: Bob Mc
You told you that I'm angry at my old company. I just said that THOUSANDS of hi tech workers are out of jobs right now. That is why the Merk News and KGO TV reported that 42% of the home loans in Silicon Valley are in default and valley traffic is no where as heavy as it was a year ago. AND what "truly" successful company are you talking about? Intel, HP, Motorola, Cisco, AMD, National Semi ... just to mention a very few ... have and are now laying off THOUSANDS of people.

My advice to you is not to be so confident in YOUR position.

162 posted on 08/03/2002 10:29:53 AM PDT by clamper1797
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To: clamper1797
You told you that I'm angry at my old company =

Who told you I was angry at my old company ??? I'm not ...

Need more coffee ....

163 posted on 08/03/2002 10:31:51 AM PDT by clamper1797
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To: Willie Green
Thanks for the laugh, willie.


He did not accuse the other "Libertarian" of actually being "an arrogant, self-righteous, dangerous fool."
He merely explained how others would perceive his attitude.



Be careful willie, much more of this type of reasoning and OTHERS will see you as; ----- "an arrogant, self-righteous, dangerous fool."

164 posted on 08/03/2002 10:33:55 AM PDT by tpaine
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To: tpaine
Whatever.
165 posted on 08/03/2002 10:37:18 AM PDT by Willie Green
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To: Bob Mc
Incidently ... I have been interviewing at both Motorola in Austin (my old company) and TI in Dallas. The interviewer at National Semi (another of my old companies) said that he used to get a stack of resumes on his desk that would have maybe one or two candidates who was qualified to interview for the position. Now ... he says ... all the candidates are qualified. I asked ... well how may candidates are you interviewing for this ASIC design position ... he said .... 14 and ten have at least your level of experience (20+ years) and at least your level of education technical process (advanced degrees).
166 posted on 08/03/2002 10:39:19 AM PDT by clamper1797
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To: clamper1797
" I just said that THOUSANDS of hi tech workers are out of jobs right now. "

Perhaps so. But they are not letting good qualified people go for no other reason than to make a profit. They have to survive in this serious turndown of the economy. You seem to imply you blame them as if they were making unreasonable decisions about your employment. I doubt they are.

You seem to have unrealistic expectations that companies can keep you gainfully employed, irregardless of their financial situation, If they're product demand is dropping, sales are floundering, if they are losing money or going broke, how can they keep so many employees hired and paid?

167 posted on 08/03/2002 10:40:42 AM PDT by Bob Mc
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To: clamper1797
well how may = well how many

level of education technical process = level of education and technical process

Where's that !@#$%^& coffee ........

168 posted on 08/03/2002 10:41:23 AM PDT by clamper1797
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To: clamper1797
You seem to have unrealistic expectations that companies can keep you gainfully employed, irregardless of their financial situation

Bob ... I NEVER said that ...

I was responding to and disputing your comment ...

However I believe in todays hi-tech technology job market, employers can't find enough "qualified" people.

Motorola CLOSED the entire facility in Sunnyvale. I don't blame them.

BUT to say that employers can't find enough 'qualified" people is pure bunk. My good friend Dennis ... (I'm looking at his house thru my window right now) is/was a QUALITY engineer with Cisco ... he was just given notice last week.

Again ... my advice to you is not to be so secure in YOUR position.

169 posted on 08/03/2002 10:47:22 AM PDT by clamper1797
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To: clamper1797
Since our debate doesn't have much to do with the original article, I suggest we continue this discussion offline, in private reply.
170 posted on 08/03/2002 10:47:42 AM PDT by Bob Mc
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To: Bob Mc
Bob--I'm a practicing, conservative Roman Catholic. Of course I think killing people is wrong. But some people, like Singer don't.
171 posted on 08/03/2002 10:59:12 AM PDT by HumanaeVitae
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To: Bob Mc
Oh ... but it actually does have to with the topic since I inferred that free for all commerce without constraint could and probably would eventually lead to drastic oppression of the work force. That includes todays practice of companies replacing American workers with both offshore and on-shore foreign workers. Libertarians would say that is good for business. I say that it may be good for business at first but it could be ruinous for our country and then, ultimately, ruinous for American business, except for the very few ultra large conglomerates that would exist after a few years of unfetered business sans fair practice restraint.
172 posted on 08/03/2002 11:00:18 AM PDT by clamper1797
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To: fporretto
Thank you and bttt
173 posted on 08/03/2002 11:02:21 AM PDT by lodwick
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To: clamper1797
he said .... 14 and ten have at least your level of experience (20+ years) and at least your level of education technical process (advanced degrees).

Sounds like we need more H-1B visas if they can't find the qualified candidates they're looking for.
Gotta become "more competitive" with the Third World.
Maybe you should seek "retraining" for a service sector job at Walmarts.
The Service Sector, afterall, is The New Global Economy!!!
</sarcasm>

174 posted on 08/03/2002 11:07:49 AM PDT by Willie Green
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To: clamper1797
Oh ... but it actually does have to with the topic since I inferred that free for all commerce without constraint could and probably would eventually lead to drastic oppression of the work force.

You are quite right. The deity of international "free" traders, David Ricardo, asserted in his treatise on "comparative advantage" that labor is driven to the subsistance level.

175 posted on 08/03/2002 11:12:54 AM PDT by Willie Green
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To: Bob Mc
I will tell you that I AM angry with companies who post fake ads for engineers on job boards to get around the government mandate to hire American engineers before hiring an H-1B. After posting these fake ads for a time they are allowed to fill these "unfilled" positions with H-1B foreign engineers. My sister-in-law is a VP of HR at a VERY large semiconductor company and says that this is a VERY common practise nowadays.
176 posted on 08/03/2002 11:14:56 AM PDT by clamper1797
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To: clamper1797
I hold a bachelors/masters in economics and a law degree; before getting the law degree I worked in IT sales for seven years. Best thing I ever did. I was an "idealistic" libertarian until I worked for a take-no-prisoners company in a brutally competitive industry. It was an eye-opener. Capitalism is great; to a point.
177 posted on 08/03/2002 11:15:18 AM PDT by HumanaeVitae
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To: clamper1797
What started out as a discussion on the conservative/libertarian schism, has turned into a anti-capitalist love fest. I'm out of here.
178 posted on 08/03/2002 11:19:48 AM PDT by Bob Mc
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Comment #179 Removed by Moderator

Comment #180 Removed by Moderator


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