Posted on 07/28/2002 3:29:38 PM PDT by ppaul
This is one of the major reasons I decided, about a year ago, to devote most of my time to the "Religion"-related threads.
I began to increasingly believe that no significant restoration of Life, Liberty, Property, Family, and Morality will happen in America, save it come about through the Movement of the Church.
I began to believe that no significant Movement will arise from the Church, until the Church becomes uncomfortable.
Well, nothing makes a sinner, overcome by apostasy and moral sloth, uncomfortable like being told the Law of God is still the binding rule of Morality for him.
That goes double for the sinful, apostate, morally-slothful... American "Christian" Church.
Military, Judicial, and (to some extent) the Space Program are all dedicated to the Execution of Murderers (in some cases, foreign armies of murderers) and/or self-defense against murderers. Each could arguably be Justified by Genesis 9:6 or Romans 13:1-10.
Weather forecasting and snow-clearing for military purposes would also fall under provisions for self-defense against murderers. There is no need that a GI who is protecting you from a Foreign Murderer should have been either Gubmint-skooled or home-schooled, but you do need him appropriately dressed for the weather conditions and able to reach the battlefield.
Weather Forecasting for the general public, however, can just as well be done by Private News agencies. And you can shovel your own driveway, too.
Well, America is a land in which millions of mothers kill their children via abortions; I suppose it is fitting that we also torture and pervert the little buggers who manage to escape the womb alive.
Or, if some redneck home-schooling throwbacks would rather cherish and nurture their children than torture and pervert them, at least they should be forced to pay for the torture and perversion of other folks' kids.
Genesis 9:6 has nothing to do with the government. Romans 13:1-10 does not specify that the government is responsible for preventing crime or protecting borders. And you have abandon all logic to include the space program as a government program that prevents murders.
Weather forecasting and snow-clearing for military purposes would also fall under provisions for self-defense against murderers. There is no need that a GI who is protecting you from a Foreign Murderer should have been either Gubmint-skooled or home-schooled, but you do need him appropriately dressed for the weather conditions and able to reach the battlefield.
No need for either program in the United States, since Mexico and Canada are unlikely to attack...
By the way, "Gubmint-skooled" is spelled government-schooled.
Weather Forecasting for the general public, however, can just as well be done by Private News agencies. And you can shovel your own driveway, too.
I clear my driveway and the sidewalk in front of my house. However, I don't have the time or equipment to clear the interstate.
Yeah, but it really needs its own thread.
Genesis 9:6 is the very institution of Government.
Romans 13:1-10 does not specify that the government is responsible for preventing crime or protecting borders.
If one man kills you (with malice aforethought) -- it's Murder.
If ten men get together and kill you (with malice aforethought) -- it's Murder.
If a million... etc.
QED.
And you have abandon all logic to include the space program as a government program that prevents murders.
National Missile Defense?
No need for either program in the United States, since Mexico and Canada are unlikely to attack...
Well, certainly, how much Military is required to protect against Foreign Murderers is always open to debate. But personally, I'd lean just a tad towards over-preparation; I'd hate to bring a knife to a gunfight, but nobody ever felt embarassed that they brought a gun to a knife fight.
I clear my driveway and the sidewalk in front of my house. However, I don't have the time or equipment to clear the interstate.
I'm sure your private Toll-way operator would be happy to clear the road so that you can drive to the toll-booth. (grin)
However, assuming we must have Government Roads, I'll make the exact same observation I have made several times already on this thread -- ALL highway funding is more-than-financed by the Gasoline Taxes. The users of Highways (those who buy gasoline) pay for the Highways; non-users (who buy no gasoline) do not pay for the Highways. I may not like the fact that Government does not have a specific Biblical authorization to build and maintain roads, but I do like the fact that they essentially only charge road users for the use thereof. By contrast, charging Home-Schoolers tax levies to subsidize the Government Schools is like charging a man who buys 1000 gallons of gas five hundred bucks in Gas Taxes for the gasoline he bought, and charging a hermit who doesn't own a car and never drives $500 in Gas Taxes for the gasoline he didn't buy.
If the State were to operate Government Schools purely on a tuition-basis, for example, only charging those who use the Schools, the situation would be more ethically-similar to Road Provision... at least you are not forcibly taking money from those who do not use the "service", but from those who voluntarily pay a "user fee" (their gasoline tax) for the service.
We would then be arguing about whether or not you should use MY government as your own personal service contractor, but at least you are not demanding that other people's money pay for the "services" which you want and which they do not.
Nope, not a singe message of the government in the entire chapter.
If one man kills you (with malice aforethought) -- it's Murder.
If ten men get together and kill you (with malice aforethought) -- it's Murder.
If a million... etc.
Still waiting for a verse specifying the government as the institution responsible for preventing and punishing murderers.
National Missile Defense?
Space exploration and the National Missile Defense are two different entities.
Well, certainly, how much Military is required to protect against Foreign Murderers is always open to debate. But personally, I'd lean just a tad towards over-preparation; I'd hate to bring a knife to a gunfight, but nobody ever felt embarassed that they brought a gun to a knife fight.
With Canada and Mexico you don't have to bring a knife.
If the State were to operate Government Schools purely on a tuition-basis, for example, only charging those who use the Schools, the situation would be more ethically-similar to Road Provision... at least you are not forcibly taking money from those who do not use the "service", but from those who voluntarily pay a "user fee" (their gasoline tax) for the service.
What about the poor who can not afford to pay the tuition?
"Government" is simply "The Moral Authority to execute those who commit Murder". This is the Institution of that authority, Genesis 9:6.
Still waiting for a verse specifying the government as the institution responsible for preventing and punishing murderers.
In addition to Genesis 9:6, Romans 13:1-10. Government, which is authorized to wield the sword against "evil" (Romans 13:1-4) therefore enjoys the authority to wield the sword against that which Paul defines as "evil" -- Murder, Adultery, Theft, Fraud, Covetous Transgression, any form of aggression against your neighbor.
National Missile Defense? ~~ Space exploration and the National Missile Defense are two different entities.
Two intimately-related entities, but I'd agree that many aspects of Space Exploration are non-military in purposes and should be executed by private commercial operations -- which many are. Albeit looking ahead, when America's entrepreneurs expand into Space their property and interests will have to be defended, of course.
Well, certainly, how much Military is required to protect against Foreign Murderers is always open to debate. But personally, I'd lean just a tad towards over-preparation; I'd hate to bring a knife to a gunfight, but nobody ever felt embarassed that they brought a gun to a knife fight. ~~ With Canada and Mexico you don't have to bring a knife.
(Grin) I'd agree. As I said, I lean towards over-preparation, but the amount of Military required to protect against foreign murderers is always open to debate.
What about the poor who can not afford to pay the tuition?
Well, you know that they won't be quite so poor after we zero-out all the (regressive) Sales Taxes and Property Taxes (which do affect the Rents of even non-property owners) which pay for Guvmint Skools.
But, even after that boost in their financial standing, the fact that Joseph is poor does not make it a MORAL Action for you to threaten to beat up Zacharias, take his money by force, and go high-tailin' it down to the stable and elbowing your way past the three wise guys to present the baby Jesus with your "gift".
Jesus don't want your stolen money. Jesus don't want you to steal.
If Joseph is too poor to afford Caesar's schools, Mary will just have to home-school Baby Jesus herself, I guess. Hopefully He'll turn out alright, as the Bible specifically promises to Bless those Parents who personally educate their children... regardless of their financial condition. It would be a most UnBiblical thing to argue that we should STEAL monies to subsidize a system which seeks to DENY these blessings to parents.
We'd give you back your Tax-share of the $7,000 per-child, per-year the Government spends on the Publik Skools, but I'm afraid that without the "contributions" of you and people like you, our system would fold.
By the way, we will, of course, require even more of your money next year, and the year after that... etc. Here, lemme help you fasten that yoke on a little tighter for you. There's a good mule.
If you enjoy breaking the Law of God, anyone who tells you to stop is going to be "wrong" in your eyes.And, "judgmental", "intolerant", and of course - horrors - "un-Christian"!
...until conservatives, and Christian conservatives in particular, wake up and put a stop to the wholesale indoctrination of our citizenry through the government "schools". Or, at least put a stop to their own children being thusly inculcated with the "amoral" value syetm of the of the State and modern civil religion.
Our Supreme Court addressed his facile arguments more than a century ago.
"We cannot say judicially that Kelly received no benefit from the city organization. These streets, if they do not penetrate his farm, lead to it. The water-works will probably reach him some day, and may be near enough to him now to serve him on some occasion. The schools may receive his children, and in this regard he can be in no worse condition than those living in the city who have no children, and yet who pay for the support of the schools. Every man in a county, a town, a city, or a State is deeply interested in the education of the children of the community, because his peace and quiet, his happiness and prosperity, are largely dependent upon the intelligence and moral training which it is the object of public schools to supply to the children of his neighbors and associates, if he has none himself."--U.S. Supreme Court, KELLY v. CITY OF PITTSBURGH, 104 U.S. 78 (1881) 104 U.S. 78
"If they will not hear Moses and the prophets, they will not believe though one should rise up from the dead." We all have our blind spots, areas where we cannot, or will not, see what's right in front of us. For most Americans, public education is a normal feature of civic life. This presupposition is so firmly held (without examination) that scriptural information to the contrary simply does not get processed. It's kinda like JavaScript input testing that automatically discards data that does not match restrictive selection criteria.
"The gospel is like a group of men hearing a joke. And one man smiles." Also sprach my favorite marxist jesuit, Ivan Illich. At some point, the words of our Lord come into play: "Leave them alone." "Go to another city." Head-butting confrontations lose utility when the party you are arguing with simply cannot process the scriptural information you present.
SO: maybe we need to shop our message in other markets. Or find other ways to package it. Your parable is a good example. Nathan smuggled his message around David's blockaded conscience with a little story.
We live in a baptistic culture that confines "religion" to the individual soul, and the Almighty. Covenantal realities, such as the family, the church, the nation, and even sometimes the Trinity, fall outside the scope of this tunnel vision. We have a long ways to go. Christian supporters of public education do not have the theological sophistication, the cognitive undergirding, to see the issue in its larger context. For them, there is no larger context.
How can we best help our fellow saints see the bigger picture?
You are kidding, right?
(If not, please see the words of Jesus, throughout the Gospels, as He denounces wickedness and sin.)
Today's "christians" don't like being told that it is not acceptable to live exactly like their pagan neighbors, they don't want to be a "peculiar" people, they want to continue to practice their pet sins, and heaven forbid that any "intolerant" person tell them otherwise.
It has been a long time since anyone could accuse publik skools of instilling either intelligence or moral training. This alone is enough to advocate the abolition of these immoral cesspools of waste.
What ya' got against Baptists? Not sure what you describe is a Baptist distinctive.
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