Retired Airline Pilot sues NTSB for "Zoom-climb" data

http://www.twa800.com/lahr/lahr-amended.htm ^ | 7/27/02 | John Fiorentino

[JohnFiorentino]

Retired airline Pilot Capt. Ray Lahr has brought suit against the NTSB for release of the data pertaining to the alleged "zoom-climb" by TWA800. NTSB has stated that this event was what the hundreds of witnesses observed prior to the TWA800 explosion.

You can view the amended complaint in it's entirety here:

http://www.twa800.com/lahr/lahr-amended.htm

[JohnFiorentino]

Apology accepted.

[FormerLurker]

You haven't answered ANY questions here Asmodeus. Cat got your keyboard? You seem to have no problem posting your ridiculous tripe all over FR, but you can't answer simple questions posed to you.

Do you think anybody reading this thread actually thinks you're on the ball? You see that your timeline is physically impossible, yet you continue to berate others with your absurd timeline. You continue to berate others as "tin-hatters", "mad-hatters", or whatever you decide to berate them with, yet you are the one who appears to be acting in a delusional manner here.

Answer the questions posed to you, or get lost.

[FormerLurker]

Let's try it again. Please provide the readers with your complete timeline. Then I'll respond to your huffnpuff.

Answer the questions.

[JohnFiorentino]

Yes, Dorothy.....they ARE essentially the same......The logic still stands.........If Boeing disavowed knowledge of the data used to make the CIA animation, then they were IN FACT doing the same re: the NTSB cartoon.

QUESTION 2: In preparing the animation, why didn't CIA personnel consult more closely with personnel fro m the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) and Boeing? Because of the nature of the criminal probe, FBI guidelines dictated that minimum interaction take place between the CIA and either the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) or Boeing while the criminal investigation was in progress. With the approval of the FBI, however, the senior CIA aerodynamicist . involved in the project consulted Boeing engineers to obtain some of the Boeing 747 technical parameters used in CIA's modeling. Also, again with the approval of the FBI, the NTSB reviewed the video when it was in its late stages of production. More than 40 minor changes recommended by the NTSB were incorporated into the video. NTSB managers and senior technical personnel reviewed the final version and concurred in its release. This video was aired during the FBI news conference on November 18, 1997.
(excerpts)

http://www.house.gov/traficant/800.pdf.

[FormerLurker]

Psst. If you want to see my timeline, try READING MY POSTS...

[FormerLurker]

That's a long ways away from sea level isn't it.. LOL

[FormerLurker]

Thing is, yeah, I forgot that TWA800 would be falling at terminal velocity in all of those calculations going backwards from the impact. I WAS right though about the time it would take to fall from 13,500 feet WITHOUT taking the terminal velocity into consideration. Without taking terminal velocity into the picture, it would have taken 29 seconds for TWA800 to fall from 13,500 feet, more than that obviously if we consider friction and the fact that it was flying part of the way and also take terminal velocity into consideration.

So, there is NO WAY the zoom climb could have occured.

For grins and giggles, let's see if we can theoretically determine how high TWA800 was at 20:31:47.

If we consider TWA800 to be at terminal velocity at that time, as we know it had to have been, let's do the calculation;

d = v * t, where;
d = height,
v = velocity = 150 miles/hour or 220 feet/second
t = number of seconds

If TWA 800 impacted at 20:31:49,
d = 220 * 2 = 440 feet

If TWA 800 impacted at 20:31:54,
d = 220 * 7 = 1540 feet

So Asmodeus's timeline is still baloney, as it is impossible for TWA 800 to have been anywhere close to 5500-7500 feet at 20:31:47.

[FormerLurker]

Out of curiousity, let's see how high TWA800 was at 20:31:43 when we take the velocity at the time to be terminal..

d(20:31:43, TE 20:31:49) = 220 feet/sec * 6 sec = 1320 feet
d(20:31:43, TE 20:31:54) = 220 feet/sec * 11 sec = 2420 feet.

Hmm, that still isn't close to Asmodeus's claim of the TWA 800 exploding into a fireball at 5500-7500 feet four seconds later..

And again, TWA 800 would have been heading DOWN at that time, not up.

[FormerLurker]

Just to see how long it would have taken TWA 800 to fall from 13,500 feet, taking terminal velocity into consideration...

First let's see how long it'd take for TWA 800 to reach terminal velocity..

v = g * t, where;
v = velocity,
g = acceleration due to gravity (32 feet/sec²),
t = time to reach terminal velocity

Rearranging the equation we have;
t = v/g

Terminal velocity is the fastest that an object can fall through the air, and is 150 miles per hour.

So we have;
v = 150 miles/hour or 220 feet/second

Solving for time, we have;
t = 220/32 = 6.875 seconds.

And to see how far it would have fallen in that time, let's do a few more calculations...

We'll see how far TWA 800 would have fallen in 6.875 seconds from d = (g * t²)/2;

d = (32 * 6.875²)/2 = 756 feet

So subtracting that from 13,500, we have;

13,500 - 756 = 12,744 feet

Taking that height and calculating the time it would take for it to fall into the sea;

d = v * t, so;
t = d/v.

Solving for time, we have;
t = 12,744/220 = 58 seconds

58 SECONDS IS IMPOSSIBLE, as TWA800 lost its nose at about 20:31:16, and it impacted between 20:49 and 20:31:54. That means it had to have DIVED under power between the initiating event at 20:31:12 and the time it lost its nose!

As the radar returns show, it DID accelerate between the IE and the time it lost its nose, so that DOES make sense. I wonder if the plane had lost control or if the pilot was taking evasive action?

[FormerLurker]

Your posting was a revelation of sorts(!), you would think of it falling (after the terminal velocity was attained) at a linear rate, possibly 325fps.

I'd say with the changing configuration of the plane, the drag of the plane without the nose, the loss of the wing, and the fact that the plane was sort of flying for awhile all confound any attempt to pinpoint an exact terminal velocity that stays constant throughout the descent. I'd say that once the entire plane blew up into a massive fireball, it was no longer aerodynamic and was falling ballistically. However, as it was aerodynamic up to a point and was flying, if anything, it would have taken longer for it to come down in relation to any estimates I've made concerning elapsed time, except for the fall after the massive fireball..

Let's just see how long it would have taken to fall from 13,500 feet with a terminal velocity of 325 feet/sec..

v = 325 feet/second,
so t = v/g in relation to how long it'd take for it to hit terminal velocity...

t = 325/32 = 10.16 seconds.

We'll see how far TWA 800 would have fallen in 10.16 seconds from d = (g * t²)/2;

d = (32 * 10.16²)/2 = 1652 feet

So subtracting that from 13,500, we have;
13,500 - 1652 = 11,848 feet

Taking that height and calculating the time it would take for it to fall into the sea;

d = v * t, so; t = d/v.

Solving for time, we have;
t = 11,848/325 = 36.5 seconds

When we add the time it took to get to terminal velocity, we have;

36.5 + 10.16 = 46.7 seconds,

which is STILL to long for it to have simply fallen from the sky at 13,500 feet, as the time it impacted was between 20:31:49 and 20:31:54. The LATEST that it could have impacted was 20:31:54, so 47 seconds less than that is 20:31:07, 7 seconds BEFORE the initiating event. As the plane FLEW for awhile, it would have taken LONGER for it to come down, so somewhere along the way it had to have made a POWERED DIVE...

[FormerLurker]

I almost had it right..

That should have said,

7 5 seconds BEFORE the initiating event.

[Asmodeus]

None of the "shootdown" tinfoil hats wants to provide the readers with a timeline. Neither does John Fiorentino, the "bomb" tinfoil hat. All of the tinfoil hats have the same reason - they don't want to be pinned down to a complete timeline because it takes away most of their wiggle room.

The timeline and location of the major events of the disaster was approximately as follows:

8:31:11 Intact and climbing 747 approaches 13,800 feet.

8:31:12 Initiating Event at 13,800 feet followed immediately by the commencement of the decapitation process.

8:31:43-8:31:47 Streak of light appears.

8:31:47 Explosion of Massive Fireball at 5500-7500 feet.

8:31:55-8:31:57 Splashdown of the Massive Fireball flames.

Note that the last word is "flames", not TWA 800, not the fuselage, not any part of the wreckage.

The Massive Fireball flames did not descend to the surface at "terminal velocity".

Neither did the source of the Massive Fireball flames, the thousands of gallons of jet fuel that gushed out of the left wing tanks when it separated from the fuselage, descend at "terminal velocity" prior to being ignited and thereby becoming the Massive Fireball.

1. When and at what approximate altitude did those thousands of gallons of jet fuel gush into the sky?

2. At what approximate altitude was that huge cloud of jet fuel ignited, thereby becoming the Massive Fireball?

3. Wasn't that jet fuel/Massive Fireball flames at all times descending?

4. What was the approximate falltime of the Massive Fireball flames to the surface?

The "Missile Witnesses" Myth

[FormerLurker]

None of the "shootdown" tinfoil hats wants to provide the readers with a timeline.

You hoo, Asmodeus, anyone home? Take a look at all of my recent posts if you want my timeline, as it's there for your eyes to behold. And you really should wrap that tinfoil around your head a little tighter, as the NWO thought rays are obviously baking what's left of your brain..

I've shown that it would be physically impossible for TWA 800 to have fell from 13,500 feet in the time given. From 13,800 feet, it would be even more impossible, if that itself were possible.

You resort to name calling, ignore any and all information I post, and fail to answer the most basic of questions. Are you unable to comprehend the material presented to you?

In fact, your own website has material that contradicts your now infamous timeline..

You provide the following statement from James Kalstom:

Just after the initial explosion at 8:31.07.5 PM, the aircraft pitched up abruptly and climbed several thousand feet from its cruise altitude of 13,800 feet to a maximum altitude of about 17,000 feet.

We all know that it's impossible for it to have climbed at all, but Kalstrom says that the IE was at 20:31:07.5, whereas YOUR timeline states that it's at 20:31:12, which is in line with the flight data recorder BUT in disagreement with your "source".

Next, we have more of Kalstrom's statement,

Shortly after Flight 800 reach the apex of its ascent - about 15 seconds or so after the initial explosion - a SECOND explosion occurred.

So that would be 31:12 + 15 sec = 31:27, right?

Then we have some more of Kalstrom's statement;

As the aircraft descended, it produced an increasingly visible fire trail. When it reached an altitude of about 1 mile - 42 seconds after the initial onboard explosion - the aircraft's left wing separated from the fuselage, releasing the unburned fuel in the left wing's fuel tanks. The fuel's subsequent ignition and burning produced a dramatic fireball visible to eyewitnesses more than 40 miles away, and detected by an infrared sensor aboard the US Defense Support Program (DSP) missile warning satellite.

So 31:12 + 42 seconds = 31:54, which is the latest time TWA800 could have hit the water according to the radar returns. It appears that Kalstrom disagrees with your timeline claim of 31:47 for the massive fireball. In any case, it couldn't have been at an altitude of 5280 feet (1 mile) as Kalstrom claims for that time, as it was already in the water.

Then you state;

Witness Meyer did not and could not have seen a "flak" shootdown of the airliner at 13,800 feet at 8:31:11 only 3-4 seconds before he saw the reportedly 2000 feet in diameter Massive Fireball explosion fill the sky between 5500 and 7500 feet at approximately 8:31:47. And, of course, he indicates that he and his crewmates agreed at the time that only about 10 seconds elapsed between the time the Massive Fireball exploded and the splashdown of its flames.

I won't even go into your misrepresentation of what Major Meyer saw and when he saw it, as that's a subject unto itself. What I want to demonstate here is that YOU'RE claiming a different time than Kalstrom gave, as it fits into YOUR little timeline, facts be damned. Kalstrom's time for the massive fireball is 31:54, where you claim 31:47. Funny how you impeach your own source on the same page you provide AS a source.

For TWA 800 to fall from 5500 feet with a terminal velocity of 325 feet/second, it'd take;

t = 5500/325 = 17 seconds.

From 7500 feet it would take;

t = 7500/325 = 23 seconds.

So if the fireball DID occur at 31:47 AND it occured between 5500-7500 feet, TWA800 would have hit the water between 32:04 and 32:10, which we know didn't happen according to the radar returns. In fact, those times don't agree with YOUR impact times of 32:55-31:57.

You neglect the fact that Kalstrom had made the statement that the SECOND explosion was at about 31:27, as you are stating that Major Meyer had to have seen this "flak" 3-4 seconds before 31:47, which would be 31:43-31:44. Just to let you know, 31:27 is not the same as 31:43...

So something is definitely amiss in your timeline. You contradict your own sources, yet you want us to refer to them as proof of what you claim.

Are you for real?

[FormerLurker]

The Massive Fireball flames did not descend to the surface at "terminal velocity".

Do you even know what the term "terminal velocity" means? It means the fastest speed that an object can attain when falling through air. Terminal velocity is greater for a streamlined object, whereas a fluid would have a much LOWER terminal velocity as it has more drag than the fuselage of a plane for example. In fact, if fluids didn't reach a reasonably low terminal velocity, every drop of rain would be like rifle bullets, and would cause tremendous damage and kill people. As that doesn't happen, I think it's safe to say that fluids have a low terminal velocity.

I'd say for a fluid, the terminal velocity would be about 25 miles/hour, or 37 feet/second.

Given that speed, for the fireball to have only fell for 10 seconds as claimed, then it would have been at;

d = 37 * 10 = 370 feet.

Now that's a far cry from your wild claims. In fact, for it to have fell a mile as Kalstrom claims (in contradiction to your claim of 5500-7500) feet, it would have taken;

t = 5280/37 = 143 seconds to fall from that high.

Now 143 is a bit more than 10, don't you agree?

Neither did the source of the Massive Fireball flames, the thousands of gallons of jet fuel that gushed out of the left wing tanks when it separated from the fuselage, descend at "terminal velocity" prior to being ignited and thereby becoming the Massive Fireball.

Blah, blah, blah. You really need to look up some basic science facts before you post, as you only reinforce the fact that you have no idea at all what you're talking about....

[FormerLurker]

BTW Asmodeus, where are those "expert" credentials of yours? What type of investigations have you done "for 50 years"? And finally, what is going on in your brain where you link contradictory statements as your souce?

[FormerLurker]

Again, what is going on in your brain where you link contradictory statements as your source?

[JohnFiorentino]

5. Has the NTSB been able to find any examples of a fueltank explosion in an airborne commercial jet or military aircraft caused by an internal ignition source in which the aircraft was using either JP-8 or Jet A-1 fuel?

Response: The Safety Board is not aware of a previous in-flight fuel tank explosion involving Jet A fuel caused by an internal ignition source.

Jim Hall, Chairman NTSB

http://www.house.gov/traficant/800.pdf.

[Asmodeus]

FYI "terminal velocity" was in quotes because it referred to your huffnpuff about the falltime of "TWA 800" whereas the timeline I included referred to the falltime of the Massive Fireball flames

Instead of providing the readers with your timeline, you tell them to read "all" your huffnpuff which would obviously have to include your "correction" postings thus far. What about the necessary corrections you haven't yet made in your huffnpuff?

JUST ONE EXAMPLE:
"You provide the following statement from James Kalstom:"

Just after the initial explosion at 8:31.07.5 PM, the aircraft pitched up abruptly and climbed several thousand feet from its cruise altitude of 13,800 feet to a maximum altitude of about 17,000 feet.

"Kalstrom says that the IE was at 20:31:07.5, whereas YOUR timeline states that it's at 20:31:12".

"Next, we have more of Kalstrom's statement".

Shortly after Flight 800 reach the apex of its ascent - about 15 seconds or so after the initial explosion - a SECOND explosion occurred.>/b>

Kallstrom didn't say those things.

Your postings have been typical of those made by the skinhead wing of the "shootdown" tinfoil hats that routinely have included deliberate and deceitful spin, distortions and fabrications to obscure the issues coupled with Storm Trooper efforts to badger, bully and harass your targets.

It's the "shootdown" tinfoil hat skinheads who deserve the credit for for the entire U.S. congress, past and present, turning their backs on the missile shootdown notion, all the press [with the exception of the "green men from Mars" guys and "shootdown" tinfoil hats] doing the same and the American people walking away with the result that the only support you have left is the now tiny number of your fellow tinfoil hats dramatized by the handful remaining in the "shootdown" chorus still posting here in FreeRepublic.

So just keep up your war dance while thumping your chest, huffingnpuffing and decreeing victory and watch the remnants of your own ilk continue to dwindle away as you keep making the effort to try to breath some life into the stillborn "shootdown" notion of James Kallstrom.

The "Missile Witnesses" Myth FBI Chief Metallurgist Blows Whistle On Kallstrom's Wild Goose Chase