Retired Airline Pilot sues NTSB for "Zoom-climb" data

http://www.twa800.com/lahr/lahr-amended.htm ^ | 7/27/02 | John Fiorentino

[JohnFiorentino]

Retired airline Pilot Capt. Ray Lahr has brought suit against the NTSB for release of the data pertaining to the alleged "zoom-climb" by TWA800. NTSB has stated that this event was what the hundreds of witnesses observed prior to the TWA800 explosion.

You can view the amended complaint in it's entirety here:

http://www.twa800.com/lahr/lahr-amended.htm

[FormerLurker]

The CIA was involved because the FBI asked them to produce the video. It had nothing to do with the NTSB.

That answer only raises furthur questions..

1. Why would a intelligence agency whose task it is to collect intelligence in foreign lands be tasked to produce a video in relation to a domestic aircraft accident?
2. Since when do intelligence agencies produce videos in relation to ANY aircraft accident (for public consumption at least)?
3. Why didn't the NTSB simply produce the video in the first place without any CIA involvement? They ARE the ones who would be SUPPOSED to do that you know...

[JohnFiorentino]

Ummmmm........Yes they did.....YOUR post

Comment #427 Removed by Moderator

Then you say..."you have no idea what data the NTSB gave to the CIA"

Yes, I do, we've ALREADY documented that, according to CIA....It was NONE

Are you completely daft?........or are you doing yourself, what you wrongly accuse me of?

[Rokke]

Disregard, I just noticed post 427 has been deleted. It is still listed in my comments file. Perhaps I should refer the moderator to all your posts in which you have launched personal attacks on me. I believe that would take us back to post #70. And I suppose Asmodeus could also lodge a complaint about you calling him assmo. But, frankly, your name calling doesn't really bother me that much. It's silly and childish, but as I said in my response to your post #70, it seems to be your style. Whining seems to be another of your traites.

You are hereby on "auto-delete". So there. :P

[JohnFiorentino]

Yes, I believe YOUR gig is up!
To: Rokke

AUTO-DELETE--Reported to moderators for libelous statements.


433 posted on 8/9/02 5:06 PM Eastern by JohnFiorentino
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 427 | View Replies | Report Abuse

[FormerLurker]

As for the rest of your post, please take a look at my post #359. Not only is a zoom a physical possiblity, it is in all likelihood a probability.

I'm sorry Rokke, but I can't see anything in that post that proves that the zoom climb is even a possibility, let alone a probability.

The radar data shows that TWA800 didn't climb, because if it had (also a impossibility), it would have slowed down trading off horizontal velocity for altitude. It didn't.

Secondly, for it to reach the altitudes quoted in both the CIA and NTSB videos, it would have had to climb 3 times faster than normal. Its engines were at idle, it had lost its nose, and for it climb at all it would have to had a booster rocket attached to it's fuselage. It had no lift, as the front of the fuselage had drastically pitched up due the loss of the nose, so it couldn't climb. As it couldn't have climbed at all, I can't see how it could have climbed 3 times faster than a 747 with all of it's parts and with engines at full throttle.

[Rokke]

I don't know for sure why the CIA was asked to produce the video. I believe I remember reading they had the best facilities to convert witness statements into video. Remember, this was the FBI's part of the investigation. Not the NTSB's. Later, the NTSB did make a video, which Boeing seemed to have no problems with.

[FormerLurker]

I believe I remember reading they had the best facilities to convert witness statements into video.

Seems to me there'd be at least several agencies that would have been better equipped for that. I find the involvement of the CIA in any of this to be highly dubious.

[Rokke]

Please reread the correspondance between Swordmaker and I. I have already provided all the answers to your questions in posts to him and mach.08. I have no desire to rehash the whole thing again. Reread the last paragraph of my post #359. If you dispute anything listed there, let me know.

[FormerLurker]

You've heard of the conservation of energy right? It IS physically impossible for TWA 800 have climbed if it didn't lose horizontal velocity, all other physical evidence and facts aside.

The radar data clearly shows that it didn't slow down, so it didn't climb.

We could argue back and forth with equations in relation to lift and drag, we could argue about how TWA 800 didn't go into a ballistic climb as its engines were at idle, we could argue about all sorts of things related to the time it would have taken for it to hit the water in relation to the altitudes claimed by the CIA and NTSB videos. In the end, upon close examination of any or all of those issues, the facts would indicate that TWA 800 DIDN'T go into this theoretical zoom climb.

The BEST physical evidence we have IS the radar data at this point, and it clearly shows that TWA 800 didn't climb after the initiating event which occured between 20:31:12 and 20:31:16.7. The data shows a ballistic fall, the termination of said ballistic fall in perfect agreement with where the debris was found...

[FormerLurker]

For some reason or another, I've had several brain to finger disconnects on this thread. What I meant to say was...

It IS physically impossible for TWA 800 to have climbed if it didn't lose horizontal velocity, all other physical evidence and facts aside.

[Rokke]

And that is your privilege as an American. But exactly what work experience have you had with the FBI, CIA, NTSB, FAA or any another Federal Agency.

[Rokke]

When was the last time you investigated an aircraft accident? Have you ever even investigated a car wreck?

[FormerLurker]

But exactly what work experience have you had with the FBI, CIA, NTSB, FAA or any another Federal Agency.

Why would that matter? Why was an agency that is charged with foreign intelligence gathering actively involved with a domestic aircraft accident?

That has nothing to do with my work experience...

[Rokke]

TWA 800 absolutely lost forward velocity. The the NTSB data clearly documents that. So does the radar data. Look at the East data and the North data. The fact (there's that word again JF) that the data points taper off in an eastern and northerly direction indicate forward motion is slowing. Do you really think the NTSB would be so stupid as to publish radar data that didn't support their own conclusions?

[Rokke]

Pssst... By the way John.... There are about 10 other posts on this thread in which I correctly accuse you of lying about the existance of a Boeing statement concerning the NTSB video. You better get busy sending whines to the moderators. But when you do, make sure you let them know I correctly identified the fact that there is no Boeing statement to support your assertion that Boeing said it "had no knowledge of, involvement with, or contribution to said (NTSB) video." If calling a spade a spade is libelous, then maybe you should change your suit.

[Rokke]

You raised this point..."Seems to me there'd be at least several agencies that would have been better equipped for that."...I responded with..."exactly what work experience have you had with the FBI, CIA, NTSB, FAA or any another Federal Agency."
I am merely pointing out that you might be unqualified to make your statement if you've had no experience working in any federal agency. For all you know, the CIA is the best federal agency out there for recreating events based on witness testimony.

[FormerLurker]

If I was qualified to answer the question, I wouldn't. If I wasn't qualified to answer the question, I wouldn't. Either way, the question goes unanswered...

[FormerLurker]

TWA 800 absolutely lost forward velocity.

Sure it did, right about the time the entire thing was engulfed in a fireball from the fuel explosion and it was 19 seconds away from hitting the Atlantic ocean. However, there's no appreciable deceleration immediately after the initiating event, nor for 18 seconds later, roughly 19 seconds before it hit the water.

The fact (there's that word again JF) that the data points taper off in an eastern and northerly direction indicate forward motion is slowing.

Again, that is well after any zoom climb might have occured if it was indeed even possible for it happen.

Do you really think the NTSB would be so stupid as to publish radar data that didn't support their own conclusions?

Yep. Makes you wonder why Ray Lahr has to sue them for the data he's looking for. Why aren't they making it public I wonder? Would it impeach their claims even more than the radar data?