Objective Individual Combat Weapons System ("No place to hide" weapon)

Heckler & Koch ^

[mhking]

Goaled to revolutionize the infantry battlefield, the OICW consolidates the needs of the U.S. Armed Forces into one rifle that will selectively replace the M16/M4 carbine and the M203 grenade launcher and accessories.

The OICW integrates these capabilities and adds other functions currently available only as modular units. Capable of firing either the high explosive (HE) 20mm air bursting ammunition or NATO standard kinetic energy (KE) 5.56 mm ammunition, this rifle will substantially increase lethality and survivability on the battlefield. The modular Fire Control System (FCS) will range to the target (with day or night optics) and automatically communicates the range to the ammunition fuzing system. Using advanced turns count fuze arming technology, the ammunition proceeds to the target and bursts precisely overhead. The system goals are to precisely deliver airburst rounds in MOUT and rural terrains that are five times more lethal at greater than twice the range of the M203. The 20mm HE fuze function features include point detonation (P.D.) delay, self-destruct, and a "window mode. "Heckler and Koch (HK) is responsible for the development of the combined 5.56mm and 20mm weapon. Alliant Techsystems (ATK), Hopkins, MN, is the prime contractor, responsible for system integration, testing, 20mm High Explosive ammunition development, training, and support definition. Brashear LP of Pittsburgh, PA, is responsible for the development of the fire control system.

[Vigilant1]

I saw this system being demonstrated on a Discovery Channel special. It includes a 'secure battlefield wireless network'. The rifle even has a mouse button on it (no joke!). The funniest (or scariest) thing is that the system runs on a modified version of Windows 2000. If your electronics crash, I wonder how long they take to reboot?

There are many vunerabilities in this system.

First, a splash of mud disables optics. There's a lot of mud splashing around battlefields. Without the optics, the entire system is virtually useless. I wonder if they'll issue paper towels & Windex with this equipment?

Second, since the system includes a wireless network, the soldiers are emitting RF signals. I just hope the enemy doesn't come up with RF-homing mortar rounds. And like all electronics gear, it will emit heat as well, making IR detection of our troops that much easier for the enemy.

Third, any wireless network, no matter how secure, can be hacked. Imagine if the enemy could see a detailed battle map with our disposition of forces, and everything we knew about that enemy's forces? They would even be able to see through our soldiers' helmet cams in realtime. If they hack our signals, our troops die. And there's no way to know when those signals are being intercepted. We just assume our equipment is so secure, that it can't happen.

Fourth, these things have got to eat lots of batteries. Batteries are heavy, they don't last long with these kind of electronics, and on the battlefield there's never enough of them.

Fifth, EMP devices pumped by conventional explosive charges are a well-known technology that's been around for a couple decades. A conventional EMP bomb detonated nearby would turn all of our technology in the area into useless scrap.

Sixth, one of the big problems with communications that are too good is that squads in combat get micromismanaged by REMF pouge officers back at the command post who don't know sh*t from Shinola. Can you imagine the level of micromanagement if such officers can get realtime communications and video from each individual soldier all the time? Pity the poor squad leaders.

Seventh, as has been mentioned, all this eletronics gear is complex, heavy and prone to breakdown. Electonics and moisture aren't a good combination. Electronics don't do well with heat. Electronics also don't do well with being pounded on, vibrated, hit with shock waves from explosions and being fallen on by a couple hundred pounds of soldier desperately trying to set a new speed record in hitting the dirt after the first round of incoming goes off a dozen yards away.

I know we have to develop technology like this to keep ahead of the tech curve. But I think it's being rushed into the field by Pentagon goobers with a woody over this latest new technotoy. I think we'll use it in training and develop new tactics that create a strong dependance on this technology. And once it goes into the field for real, and it fails, or worse, the enemy hacks into and uses our own technology against us, our people will die.

[bimbo]

Too simple. Needs to be bulkier and more complicated.

You can bet that if this weapons System is half as effective as it sounds, the U.S Army Non-Combatants will have it modified until it is much less effective or NOT effective at all. I’m thinking of the Stoner 63 system (the basis of the AR-15, M-16, etc) of the early-mid ‘60s. Privately invented and developed and effective. Then modified, re-modified, re-re-modified, etc. by the Army to meet this spec, then that spec, and yet this other remote spec. Today, the M-16 is a nice weapon, but it didn’t need all the tampering and modifications.

[bimbo]

Why is it that combat soldiers go out and buy their own Motorola Talkabout radios with earbud microphones? It's because the Army's radios have sucked, do suck, and probably will continue to suck.

The explanation is simple: The Motorola Talkabout must work or Motorola will not sell very many … the Army equivalent (probably also built by Motorola) does not have to work – it only has to meet its design specs. Motorola made the money when the contract was signed to deliver so many.

[Saturnalia]

Does "No Place to Hide" refer to the enemy or the weapon itself :P

[LibKill]

I saw this dog on the History Channel.

At 20 or so pounds it is way too heavy for an infantry rifle.

It also requires batteries. Battery technology is not very good yet, heavy and short-lived.

Finally, while I have not seen it stripped, it appears to be a very complicated system. Infantry weapons should be simple. The M-16 has too many parts for my way of thinking (yes, I know it works).

I would much rather have an AK, an M-16, an M-1, an M-14(best choice), or even a lever-action 30-30, rather than one of these gee-whiz gizmos.

[dvwjr]

Damn! I remember my "Johnny Seven" that I got for Christmas back then. The part I had thought was the "coolest" was where the kid's hand is on the trigger of the "rifle" is also a detatchable pistol.

It provided hours of amusement for my friends and myself. Times have changed. Today's kids like my six year old nephew wouldn't give something like this a second look...

[harpseal]

I agree with your test regimine but I don't think you will ever find a flag officer willing to conduct it.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

[Squantos]

I can hear the conversation now......Hey Buddy what caliber is that thang ?..........9V or AA ?

Agree on the field test.

Human waves of ChiCom /North Koreans is IMHO the serious threat to the individual troop on the ground these days. 100% reliability in environmental extreams ( Desert, Jungle or Chosin resivoir )Weight, Easy field strip/cleaning with minimum moving parts.

High capacity magazines , accuracy, and simple good iron sight's augmented with thermal and/or starlight amplification is or should be a basic requirement. Then and only then consider "attachments" such as whizbang laser aiming and ranging electronics......20MM HEDP or SABOT rounds ect ect ect.

Our Veterans are a rock solid source of historical "what if's" based on experience in combat that should be included in primary weapon considerations versus "offical findings" of some desk bound beancounting engineer whos possibly only fired the weapon on a puter.

With modern materials,design, CNC machining ect ect there is not one single reason for a US Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine to have doubt in their gear, firearm or not .......< / RANT >

Stay Safe !

[Shooter 2.5]

I have never seen an AK at any High Power match.
I have seen SKS's that never broke into Marksman regardless of how good the shooter was.
There was one person that said that he wanted to bring a 30-30 but he was a horrible shot. He was looking for a built in excuse not to do very well.
M1's are antiquated relics. They can be made to shoot but only after spending so much money that you almost buy two CMP Bushmasters.
M14's are still being used but there days are almost over.
The M16's and the AR-15's can be used almost out of the box. The trigger usually needs work and the front sight is too wide, the rear too large. The only serious problem that I found would be the front sight. Sometimes the sight is set too high and it's wobbles. A 8-36 set screw underneath the sight or red LOKTITE is needed to keep it in place.

[LibKill]

Your points are all well made. But I wasn't talking about target shooting.

Look at that thing in the illustration above.

I wouldn't want to carry it all day through mud and what-all and then try it out in a fire fight.

Give me something reliable, and of reasonable weight.

[Atlas Sneezed]

Will the art of the rifleman die (except among civilans) with weapons like this issued to the troops?

[archy]

I'd drag it behind a humvee through sand, gravel, mud and salt water for starters. I'd freeze it and drop it and bake it and bury it.

When Israel's Naval Commando unit Shayetet 13 - the IDF version of the US Navy SEALs, known as the *batmen* from the insignia they wear- were deciding on their standard weapon a few years back, they of course had their choice of anything made in the world. The H&K MP5 smg was highly popular for such things then, the US Navy having tested and adopted a version with a plastic lower trigger housing nicely resiostant to saltwater corrosive effects, and the Israeli Galil offering the legendary reliability of the AK 47 with the common ammo of the M16- and several standard and shorty versions of the M16 were also considered, and are now found with most IDF units.

But a Navy Seal from Team 6 was doing an exchange tour with them, and he told me how their evaluation of the weapons went:

They tied a 25-meter length of parachute cord to each weapon, loaded it, and tied it off to a piling at the end of the dock at their small boat launch site, then pitched them into the water and left them there, under guard.

A week later, they came back and tried them. Of those that worked, the survivors were then reloaded, then tied behind a sand tractor and dragged for a mile up the beach and back and tried again.

Only the AK47s still worked, and that's what the Shayetet 13 raiders still use. I don't think the Israelis were too concerned about freezing their testbed subjects, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did that, either.

And when Seal Team 6 went to El Salvador in the 1980s to *assist and advise* the Salvadorian Navy on such matters and train a similar unit there, they took along 15 milled-receiver AK-47s prepared for them by the US Navy's match rifle and small arms repair facility the same way the Israelis did. And they worked just fine.

The AK47 with underbarrel 40mm M203 grenade launcher is now becoming another favourite with the batmen for such things, with a little more punch than the equivalent Soviet 30mm UGL units, particularly with the shaped-charge HEDP ammunition. And other interesting ammunition that the Israelis have available, but the US does not....

[archy]

Note the open fork flash suppressor. Ideal for snagging every vine and twig. Just like the early M-16's in SE Asia...

And just like the early jammamatic M16s, still useful as a tool for opening wire-bound C-ration and M79/M203 40mm grenade ammo cases using the prongs as a wirecutter. At least it's useful for something that way.

They'll change that, I'm sure.

-archy-/-

[Shooter 2.5]

I was writing about hitting a target.
If this weapon can hit harder, faster and at a longer distance than anything else we have, I don't care how much it weighs.

[RaceBannon]

Y9ou gotta admit, a shoulder fired 20MM that can explode at the target is pretty kewel!!

[archy]

Go to metalstorm.com to see the future. Rummy knows it and likes it.

I wondered which defense contractor was going to put Rumsfield in their pocket once he's out. I guess now we know.

-archy-/-

[RaceBannon]

There is a concept coming out to rplace the battery.

Ever hear of a Turbo-Expander? It is a turbine wheel, spinning by compressed air, with the air being re-cycled through the turbine to cool it...anyways, that is one method to create liquid hydrogen, LOX, whatever.

Using a small device like this, that can be miniaturized, you can hook up magnets and generate electricity with it. The smaller you make it, the more man-portable it is. Because it uses air bearings, it needs no lube either, and the only moving parts are the turbine shaft.

It would fit inside any radio today, and all it would take to get it started is a small C02 container like for a pop gun.

translation: batteries be gone. Plus, it would be so small, you can carry two of these to replace the normal battery for an old PRC-77, size wise.

[decimon]

A guy who dresses like a monk with a pigeon sitting on his head is always a reliable resource. :-)

[archy]

The OICW is featured in the computer game, Delta Force, Land Warrior. Using it is almost like cheating.

Does it frequently explode and kill or injure its operator in the game, as one OICW did to it's Ordnance tech operator during one of the developmental tests? I'd certainly think that possibility would add to the interest level of such simulations....

Roll the dice....

-archy-/-

[wardaddy]

Hackworth (I know some on here think he's a self promoter and he is I guess)..anyhow in his latest book he tells about one of his patrols in the Delta finding a VC that had been hastily buried at some point for about a year or so in the muck with his AK-47. The squad leader picked up the AK and emptied the mag on the spot with no malfunctions. I can't speak for the accuracy (I have 2 SKS(s)..there are ok out to 100 or so) but the durability of the AK genre firearms seems to be fairly well documented.