Imagine there's no atheist.

rockey mountian Rattlesnake press ^ | 24/jul/02 | Darren Morrison

[Dimensio]

Most of so called atheists are people who have some grudge toward God.

To which "God" (out of the thousands worshipped or otherwise acknowledged throughout human history) do you refer?

[Tired of Taxes]

O'Hair wasn't instrumental in removing prayer from public schools. That happened in an earlier case filed by a group mixed with believers/nonbelievers:

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/blfaq_cs_myth_ohair.htm

[Dimensio]

BTW, I don't think MMO's case removed "school prayer"; I think it was a court case against biblical passages read in public school classrooms. She's often credited (or accused) of "removing school prayer", but I think that happened in an earlier case. I'll check on that and post again.

Check on Engle v. Vitale

IIRC the main plaintiff was a Lutherian father and the district was in NYC. I might be thinking of a different case, though.

[Dimensio]

The site mentions the first USSC cases regarding religion in public schools, but I'm surprised that it doesn't mention earlier cases in state supreme courts that had similar effect -- which happened in the mid to late 1800s.

[Tired of Taxes]

You're right, it was Englel v. Vitale:

http://atheism.about.com/library/decisions/religion/bl_l_EngelVitale.htm

I never heard about the earlier cases, though. I'm still learning about it all myself.

[decimon]

Libratains are born under the sign of the scales.

"Libra is the only inanimate sign of the zodiac, all the others representing either humans or animals. Many modern astrologers regard it as the most desirable of zodiacal types because it represents the zenith of the year, the high point of the seasons, when the harvest of all the hard work of the spring is reaped. There is a mellowness and sense of relaxation in the air as mankind enjoys the last of the summer sun and the fruits of his toil. Librans too are among the most civilized of the twelve zodiacal characters and are often good looking. They have elegance, charm and good taste, are naturally kind, very gentle, and lovers of beauty, harmony (both in music and social living) and the pleasures that these bring."

[A. Pole]

Most of so called atheists are people who have some grudge toward God.

To which "God" (out of the thousands worshipped or otherwise acknowledged throughout human history) do you refer?

This is the question I usually address to the atheists I meet. And I found that in most cases they tend to follow the religion they grew up in. So there are atheists of Roman Catholic denomination or of Luthern denomination or Jewish denomination etc ...

But when I question them deeper, in almost every case some grudge and hostility toward God pops out.

The purely intellectual atheism is rare. Maybe because it is intellectually unsound. See how many of the leading philosophers were atheists. Basically you can find only three - Marx, Nietzsche and Sartre.

Marx developed his theory by inverting the Hegelian theocentric pantheism and divinizing the conscious matter (to be fulfilled in the future mankind). This trick leaves a lot of questions and is less consistent than the original system.

Nietzsche is more like an atheists with a grudge. But I would live it open.

Sartre is less prominent (some think that his philosophy was based on misunderstaning of Heidegger). Anyway in the end of his life he repented and confessed faith in God.

So who is left? Usually some confused poor souls did not think the matter to the end and who think that Carl Sagan or Stephen Hawking are the greatest minds ever.

[Dimensio]

But when I question them deeper, in almost every case some grudge and hostility toward God pops out.

How would you classify this hostility? I have heard of atheists who consider the God worshipped by Christians or Jews or Muslims to be a monster, but they consider it no more of a "real" monster than they would Cthulu -- it's just that no one believes that Cthulu is real (of course, he'll show them all. Muhahahahaha!)

The purely intellectual atheism is rare. Maybe because it is intellectually unsound.

Why is that?

[JediGirl]

it's just that no one believes that Cthulu is real (of course, he'll show them all. Muhahahahaha!)

SAY IT'S NOT SO! HE IS real! He revealed himself to me last night in the form of dinner!

[A. Pole]

"in almost every case some grudge and hostility toward God pops out"

How would you classify this hostility? [...]it's just that no one believes that Cthulu is real (of course, he'll show them all. Muhahahahaha!)

Pop, pop, pop, muhahahahaha. Here you go.

The purely intellectual atheism is rare. Maybe because it is intellectually unsound.

Why is that?

A good question. Why we cannot find a first rate atheist thinker who would be more reliable than Marx, Nietzsche, Sartre? Wink, wink, wink.

[sonserae]

Since atheists believee we came from nothing, doesn't that still make them nothing???

[Dimensio]

Since atheists believee we came from nothing, doesn't that still make them nothing???

No, but only because your premise is a strawman.

[breakem]

Religious expressions are not banned from public life. I see them in public all the time. Government support is banned and rightly so.

[Dimensio]

Government support is banned and rightly so.

Some people seem to think that government support for their religion is a necessary component of their religion...

[breakem]

you've brought the discussion around to the original point. We are seeing the problem in its extreme in some of the Islamic countries.

[BMCDA]

Only those Rights conceived to be granted by the Creator are genuine -- all others are revokable on the whim of those in power, or in the changing of political fashion.

Every right can be changed, there are no inalienable rights. Rights are what people (usually in a society) grant to each other. So in a different society you have different rights.
Inalienable are only your needs e.g. you want to live, you want to be happy or you want to state your opinion openly. This is true in every situation, however, it doesn't automatically follow that others grant you the according rights to those needs.
Just because you are an American citizen and you have the right of freedom of speech in the U.S. doesn't mean you have the same rights in Iran for instance. Just call some mullah a doofus and see what happens.

So just because it is a bad idea to revoke certain rights doesn't mean that this is not possible. Further, people very often don't agree on what these genuine divine rights are, so different religions or even different denominations of the same religion can come up with different genuine divine rights. And so far I haven't heard of any objective method with which we can determine what these so called divine rights are.

The Founding Fathers only meant to prevent the establishment of a State Religion, not to ban religion from government and public life.

They wanted to prevent an establishment of a state religion but also the entanglement of religion and government i.e. the government should be neutral in regard to religion. And that is what a secular government is. So people may still be religious but the government should not prefer one religion over an other or religion over non-religion or vice versa. It must simply remain neutral.

[BMCDA]

I just think that some people take the Free Exercise Clause a bit too far.
They simply think that just because some practice is part of a religion they can freely exercise it but this is not the case. They may believe whatever they want but they can't do whatever they want.
So if their religion commands them to force it upon others and to use whatever means to achieve this goal (e.g. taking over the government) they have bad luck since this is not allowed.
However, some still seem to have a problem with this since they apparently believe that laws don't apply to religions.
And of course there is still this misunderstanding that 'secular' means that everybody has to be an atheist :(

[elfman2]

"Agnostics are neutral....atheists are anti---militants/talibans!"

What an idiotic lead in to a disturbed rant… Atheism only means that one's worldview is not theologically based. God help you.

[f.Christian]

What ever made you think your understanding is the road map of the uiniverse...more like the town dump---treatment plant!

[f.Christian]

What ever made you think your understanding is the road map of the uiniverse...

more like the town dump---

treatment plant---bilge swill!