GOLD PLUMMETS - SPOT CHART

http://www.kitco.com/charts/livegold.html ^

[Fitzcarraldo]

Source: www.kitco.com

[Poohbah]

1. Those who have a complaint must make the affirmative case.

Yes. It's as old as the history of rhetoric and debate. Those who are positively claiming something, such as "The earth is an oblate spheroid," must offer evidence to support said claim.

2. You reject any complaint if the plaintiff has a vested interest.

It's called "IV&V," for Independent Validation & Verification. That means that those with a pecuniary interest in selling gold at the highest possible price are not going to be my sole discriminant in determining the truth or falsity of a claim of gold market manipulation aimed at lowering the price of gold.

How, then, can any complaint merit your consideration.

Provide some IV&V. Is that too hard for you to understand?

[Poohbah]

Re: "You willing to pay me for the time I spend reading this book?"

Yes, if you are willing to pay all Freepers for reading your posts based on lack of understanding of gold as money.

OK, I bill at $150 an hour, minimum 80 hours. That is my market-determined rate based on what I get in independent consultation fees.

On the other hand, I pay the market rate. Folks like you are worth $5.15, but only because Uncle Sugar says so. I'll pay real-world rates. $0.02 will be donated to Free Republic in lieu of paying out millionths of mills to each offended Freeper. G'Day.

[Deuce]

Now, not only the American economy dwarfs the entire precious metals market

Only of its valued at $300 fiats to the ounce. If its valued at, say, $12,000 fiats to the ounce, there's plenty.

[Poohbah]

Only of its valued at $300 fiats to the ounce. If its valued at, say, $12,000 fiats to the ounce, there's plenty.

Have you registered as an agent of a foreign government? You seem to be arguing for the interests of South Africa and Russia over those of the United States.

[OK]

I can see that you don't want to be confused with facts. You want me to pay you hundreds of dollars to quit spreading wrong information.

However, if you get serious about learning something, go to www.goldensextant.com. Then read Ferdinand Lips' book Gold Wars.

You don't know anything about this subject.

[Deuce]

Also, no country can be an IMF member if it bases its currency on gold!!! That's right. Under the IMF Articles of Agreement, Section 4-2b, a member may link its currency to biscuits or sour pickles, but not to gold. In an open letter to Greenspan and O'Neill, Dr. Ron Paul (Rep. TX) asked for the justification of this policy. Not surprisingly, he hasn't heard back, yet, from either gentleman.

[OK]

Re: "Also, no country can be an IMF member if it bases its currency on gold!!!"

That is correct sir, and it is a scandalous state of affairs. Switzerland was the last to capitulate. They now have no legal link between their franc and gold. The global economy is crashing and burning because everything is based on paper and promises.

[headsonpikes]

"You seem to be arguing for the interests of South Africa and Russia..."

That's not fair and you know it.(shaking my finger)

As expressed in the Constitution, gold IS money, whether gubmints like it or not. Obviously, they would prefer to be like King Midas, and have the power to 'monetize' anything they choose. They have essentially done so over the last 30 years or so.

WHEN, not if, the chickens come home to roost, defenders of gold will not be seen as loonies, but as traitors!(Oops! Only if the Demos wins!); not as loonies, but as patriots!

Gold or gold shares should be owned PRUDENTIALLY by every investor.

See: 'rainy day', 'umbrella'.....

Did the taxi come? ;^)

[Deuce]

Have you registered as an agent of a foreign government? You seem to be arguing for the interests of South Africa and Russia over those of the United States.

U.S. has 8100 metric tonnes of gold;
Russia has 400 metric tonnes;
South Africa has 100 metric tonnes.

Once you understand gold as money, you will recognize that the presence of mines in South Africa and Russia will be of temporary and very limited benefit to them.

[Gritty]

You wanted confirmation from another site other than a gold site?

Try this one from the Treasury Department, which requires these derivatives to be reported. And just so I don't have to pay your outrageous consulting fee and minimums, check out page 27 for specifics.

This pdf is the 3Q 2001. It shows a massive exposure of around $37 billion in gold derivatives held by JPM/Chase and another $14 billion held by Citibank (the two shakers and movers,... and bagholders... with Enrom and WorldCon). Much of these gold derivatives would probably still remain unwound, as the bulk of them are for greater than one year. Who knows how many more they wrote between then and now?

Still think they don't have an interest in this game?

And no, I don't have any gold to sell you. This is to point out their mindboggling exposure and pecuniary interest in keeping their derivative house of cards under control.

[Poohbah]

I can see that you don't want to be confused with facts. You want me to pay you hundreds of dollars to quit spreading wrong information.

My time is valuable. Either pay the going rate or don't; that's your decision.

However, if you get serious about learning something, go to www.goldensextant.com. Then read Ferdinand Lips' book Gold Wars.

I'll do it the second your check for 10% of the estimated final bill clears.

You don't know anything about this subject.

And you've so demonstrated your knowledge by avoidance of invective and showing me, in detail, where I am mistaken.

[discostu]

A - no link or url
B - there's a BIG difference (like a couple of zeros) between $37 billion and $16 to $24 TRILLION

Nobody is saying JPM doesn't have a bunch of gold that it might or might not be dumping on the market which in turn could be lowering the price. The questions are how much? And is the dumping being done to deliberatley lower the price and protect some hedge?

[Poohbah]

No link in your post. And $37 billion in exposure is not the same as $24 trillion, as was alleged.

[LS]

Dang Buildy Burgers must be manipulating the market with the Masons and Queen Elizabeth again!

[OK]

www.GoldenSextant.com
www.gata.org

Then read the book "Gold Wars" by Ferdinand Lips. It is the story of gold as money from ancient times up until 2001.

My time is valuable to me also, so I am not going to do more than to tell you where to get yourself up to speed on this. I know your game from previous threads. It is not invective to tell you that in my opinion you know nothing about gold as money. You always have interesting things to say, but you are wrong on this one.

[rollin]

They changed the rules in order that the boys in the pits would not go broke.

So the Hunt's lost a fortune.

[Poohbah]

My time is valuable to me also, so I am not going to do more than to tell you where to get yourself up to speed on this.

Then write the bloody check. In this case, it would be because I'm doing your work for you (i.e., it is your responsibility to substantiate your arguments, not mine).

I know your game from previous threads. It is not invective to tell you that in my opinion you know nothing about gold as money.

You didn't state it as opinion, you merely asserted it as fact without any proof, and of equal semantic content to calling me a "poopy-head." In short, as invective.

[justshutupandtakeit]

While the founding fathers prevented the States from issuing paper money they did not place the federal government under the same restriction. They could easily see that specie was systemicly drained out of this country and as a consequence there was almost none to be had. Given the persistent balance of payments deficits of the early period that would not have changed since significant gold mining did not occur until the late 1840s.

Gold is totally impractical as a money supply and in fact has never been truely used as such. Even when claimed as the true money governments proclaim inconvertibility anytime a crisis developed. Thus, England did not require convertibility for almost 40 yrs during the Napoleonic era.

Handling large transactions is virtually impossible with a metallic standard and small ones are exceedingly difficult as well.

Anyone who has actually examined the needs of a modern economy can understand that the growth rate of a money supply of gold is far too low to allow economic health. Growth rates of 3% a yr. are impossible to attain without an increasing MS unless tremendous productivity gains regularly occur. Gold as money wears away at a rate of 1% per yr. thus as MS it would have to increase by at least a 4% rate for a growing economy. This is almost twice the long run growth rate of the gold supply.

When gold/silver was the standard not only was there chronic deflation because of the slow growth rates but it was distributed very unevenly within the nation. It was over a 100x as plentiful in the urban areas than in some rural states in the 19th century U.S. Not only was there a built in deflation with gold but when large discoveries were made it wildly inflated money supplies and produced inflation. Gold from the New World inflated Spain's prices so much that its economy was wrecked and the country went from being the most powerful in Europe to a backwater in about a 100 yrs. That inflation spread throughout Europe during that century.

Gold is valued monetarily because of superstition more than rational analysis. And most of the history of the Gold Standard is not properly understood.

This is why the populists, greenbacker and progressive parties were formed by the farmers of the west and south- to demand a more elastic money supply not limited to the Eastern cities.

[rollin]

ACtually, Bunker Hunt was the primary Hunt at risk. The rest of the two Hunt families were not hurt.

[rollin]

That is the notational value of the derivatives, not the value of the gold.

If you would take the time to understand what derivatives are and how they are leveraged against a commodity, you might begin to understand the dimensions of the problem.

LTCM almost broke the financial system of the world and their derivative exposure was magnitudes less than that of either JP Morgan, Citibank, and/or Bank of America all of whom have significantly higher derivative exposures.