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Atlas Shrugged-Contradictions Where None Can Exist(VANITY)
dubyagee

Posted on 07/22/2002 4:31:37 PM PDT by dubyagee

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To: dubyagee
Bump for later.
141 posted on 07/22/2002 6:22:00 PM PDT by Springman
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To: 07055
Yeah! Baldwin would actually be a good John Galt, he could play the part of the railroad worker pretty well, he has kind of a blue collar look when you mess him up a little. His serious look alone could pull off the stern "I am John Galt!!" type speech once he cleans himself up towards the end of the book. The guy I am having trouble with tho is Ragnar. Who would play him? Maybe Fabio...JFK
142 posted on 07/22/2002 6:22:16 PM PDT by BADROTOFINGER
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To: mamaduck; Hank Kerchief
Yendu is making the error that if we self-determine "good" it is from reason rather from our God-given conscience, or Holy Spirit within each of us INDIVIDUALLY.

I agree 'good' doesn't come from reason! But our consciences are not good enough either - for we are all tempted to do bad things! Christ taught that we need God to overcome that tendency.

143 posted on 07/22/2002 6:22:42 PM PDT by yendu bwam
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To: tpaine
All name-callers who believe that Randians are capable of rationalizing mass murder please proceed to the nearest CREVO thread

Please do pardon me. I clarified myself in an earlier post. I could see someone using her beliefs to justify murder, just as they do with God.(How awful to eat one's words!)

144 posted on 07/22/2002 6:23:22 PM PDT by dubyagee
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To: 07055; BADROTOFINGER; dubyagee
Harrison Ford is an interesting idea. Hmmm. The car salesman (William H. Macy) is excellent, and Jeff Daniels, cool. However, the austere, quiet, driven, leading characters would be extremely difficult, I think. Steve Buscemi as Ellsworth Toohey? Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise as Hank or Howard? Bwaahahahahahahahaha.
145 posted on 07/22/2002 6:24:26 PM PDT by stylin_geek
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To: dubyagee
I remember reading a few years about about an Atlas Shrugged mini-series that was in the works. Whatever happened to it?

I would have never thought you could condense the book to mini-series length until I listed to Atlas Shrugged on tape.

It is around 9 hours long and definitely does justice to the book.

146 posted on 07/22/2002 6:24:29 PM PDT by 07055
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To: Hank Kerchief
You made an earlier absurd statement about knowing what your desires are without reason.

Wasn't absurd! We have many desires (to gossip, to have sex, to commit adultery, to be prideful) which do not emanate from reason!

147 posted on 07/22/2002 6:25:04 PM PDT by yendu bwam
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To: PatrickHenry
That's the lesson of Eddie Willers.

Thank you for that explanation. How clever of Rand...

148 posted on 07/22/2002 6:26:04 PM PDT by dubyagee
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To: yendu bwam
I would submit that the evil is the irrational, that which destroys mans' life. The good is the rational, that which is constructive to mans' life.

The Bible says as much in as little words.

149 posted on 07/22/2002 6:26:25 PM PDT by galt-jw
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To: Hank Kerchief
You also did not answer my question. If reason is not the means by which I know what is good and bad, what faculty do I use?

Either you accept the existence of God (and good and bad) outside of ourselves, or you make up your own definitions of good and bad. But again, the use of reason, without God, can lead to Rand, Hitler, Stalin, or anything at all - depending on what your desires are.

150 posted on 07/22/2002 6:27:47 PM PDT by yendu bwam
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To: stylin_geek
Just cast the movies from real life:

Lilian Rearden: Hillary Clinton
Elsworth Toohey: Peter Jennings
Howard Roark: Tom Hanks

151 posted on 07/22/2002 6:28:34 PM PDT by 07055
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To: dubyagee
Okay, I'll bite.

I think it's important to understand that Rand was influenced by the German philosopher, Nietzsche. Granted, Rand's "political philosophy" was certainly not as deep, nor as influential, but it's widely accepted that she was influenced by him. There are important differences, of course, but there are certain key elements that are important.

One of those elements concerns Rand's critique of religion and so-called altruistic morality. Selfishness, in this view, is not evil, but only as good or bad as the selfish individual. And as for altruism? It doesn't exist. As Nietzsche said, "there are no selfless acts" at all!"

Why? Because the altruist is motivated by fear and by the need for others to think well of him. His vanity knows no bounds. He imagines himself as suffering along with those he wishes to help (he is motivated by fear), and he buys himself a good reputation with his fellows and flatters his vanity by his alleged "selfless" acts. Altruism is just as brutally selfish as anything else, but as a form of morality it is far less honest.

Of course, in Rand's view the altruist does not decrease suffering. On the contrary, the altruist increases suffering and misery, and he robs individuals of their humanity by placing the blame for their suffering on those who are not responsible. The altruist is shameless, has no respect for the tragic, is far more vain than most can imagine.

I have to say that after decades of altruistic government the results speak for themselves.

152 posted on 07/22/2002 6:28:34 PM PDT by Reactionary
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To: dubyagee
she did everything but use the name Christian in belittling "mystics" for believing in a power higher than self
She didn't quite say that, it was more like "if you can't understand it then why are you following it?" If the ideas pushed out there by the mystics (she was probably referring more to the Russian Othrodoxs of her youth that are a step above witchdoctors with their mysticism) can't be reasoned out then you have no business following them.
153 posted on 07/22/2002 6:28:44 PM PDT by lelio
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To: dubyagee
If a soul can exist, so too, can God.

I didn't see anyone else point this out to you, if they have, please forgive the redundancy.

For Ayn Rand, man's soul is his consciousness, particularly that consciousness unique to man, the rational/volitional consciousness, the conscious ability to think and choose.

If you attempt to make the word soul mean anything more than this in Ayn Rand's mouth (or pen), you have misinterpreted her.

(I will gladly provide quotes from her writings to substantiate this, if you like. Most people familiar with Ayn Rand are quite familiar with her position on this.)

Hank

154 posted on 07/22/2002 6:28:55 PM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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To: galt-jw
The good is the rational, that which is constructive to mans' life.

Many would say that to love your enemies is completely irrational. Stalin and Mao (as well as most other people in this world) thought and think so.

155 posted on 07/22/2002 6:29:05 PM PDT by yendu bwam
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To: yendu bwam
Good night, ya all. Good discussion. Have enjoyed it!

y.b.
156 posted on 07/22/2002 6:29:48 PM PDT by yendu bwam
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To: dubyagee
Thank you for that explanation [the lesson of Eddie Willers]. How clever of Rand...

That kind of sophistication is present in all her main characters, and even many minor ones. Each has a specific philosophical problem, and it affects his role in life, and of course in the novel. Each is carefully drawn to illustrate her philosophical principles. The gradual education of Henry Reardon is wonderfully handled. The fall of Dr. Stoddard is also wonderful, and grim.

There's a lot to be gained from actually mapping each character and his approach to problems. Rand did an enormous amount of work in creating characters, but it's very abstract. The book requires a lot of work to understand its subtleties.

157 posted on 07/22/2002 6:32:44 PM PDT by PatrickHenry
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Comment #158 Removed by Moderator

To: yendu bwam
I've said this before but one of things I love about Free Republic is that you can always be sure that certain subjects will always generate more than 100 replies:

Guns, NASCAR, Ayn Rand, Ann Coulter's looks, marijuana, cats, the evil of the Clintons.....

159 posted on 07/22/2002 6:33:14 PM PDT by 07055
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To: one_particular_harbour
I won't engage in name calling, but I will say that in Rand's world, there is no shade of gray - which is why I tend to view it as utopian dreck.

With Rand, it was "my way or the highway." You could agree with her 98% of the time but because you might disagree with her 2% of the time, then she would consider you scum of the earth. BTW, her earlier novels were much better than her later ones where she just slammed you over and over again with her philosophy.

160 posted on 07/22/2002 6:34:54 PM PDT by PJ-Comix
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