The choice is yours alone.... "
Posted on 07/19/2002 7:54:33 AM PDT by Jersey Kid
Israel Arrests Attackers' Relatives Fri Jul 19, 9:23 AM ET
JERUSALEM (AP) - Israeli soldiers arrested 16 relatives of two Palestinians suspected in bloody terror attacks this week, and in what would be a new policy, officials Friday were considering expelling some of the men to the Gaza Strip ( news - web sites).
AP Photo
AP Photo Slideshow: Mideast Conflict
Israel Keeps Restrictions After Bomb (AP Video)
Israel Radio said expulsion of the fathers and brothers reflect new harsh measures the Israeli government is considering to deter potential attackers. Israeli soldiers also destroyed the family homes of the two suspected Palestinian militants.
In a statement, the militant group Hamas threatened to launch "unique martyrdom operations," if the deportations are carried out, a reference to suicide attacks.
The two attacks, a bus ambush in the West Bank and a double suicide bombing in Tel Aviv, were the first fatal strikes against Israeli civilians since Israeli forces moved into seven of the eight main Palestinian towns and cities in the West Bank on June 20, after back-to-back suicide bombings in Jerusalem.
A woman injured in the bus ambush near an Israeli settlement in the West Bank on Tuesday, Yocheved Ben-Hanan, 21, died in Tel Aviv hospital Thursday, police said, bringing the death toll to nine. Three bystanders, including two foreign workers, were killed in the double suicide bombing in Tel Aviv on Wednesday.
A new group affiliated with Yasser Arafat ( news - web sites)'s Fatah ( news - web sites) movement called Al-Nazir, "the warning" in Arabic, claimed responsibility for the Tel Aviv bombing, identifying the bombers as Mohammed Attala, 18, and Ibrahim Najie, 19, from the Balata refugee camp, next to Nablus.
Abdel Nasser Najie, a relative, said Ibrahim Najie "used to work in Israel and knew Israel very well." He said Najie left for Israel several days ago, and the family lost contact with him. He said if relatives had known he was going to carry out a suicide attack, "we would have stopped him."
Overnight, Israeli forces moved into the Askar refugee camp and the nearby village of Tel, near Nablus, the military and residents said.
In Tel, soldiers destroyed the house of Nasser Aseida, 26, a leader of the Hamas military wing who was suspected of organizing the bus ambush. Soldiers arrested his father and four brothers, and detained relatives of two other wanted Hamas leaders, who are in hiding, like Aseida.
In a similar operation in the Askar refugee camp, soldiers destroyed the house of a leader of the Fatah-linked Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades militia, Ali Ajouri, 23, badly damaging several nearby houses, residents said. Soldiers arrested Ajouri's father and two brothers, they said. Ajouri was not captured.
Altogether, the Israelis detained 16 men, Palestinians said. In a statement, the military said the operation was "part of the war against the terrorist infrastructure."
The Israel military has long destroyed the family homes of suicide bombers in an attempt to dissuade attackers. Expelling militants' relatives from the West Bank to Gaza would be a new step. The Gaza Strip, which has not been a source of suicide bombers in the past two years, is easier to seal off from Israel than the West Bank.
A senior Israeli official said the government was awaiting final recommendations from Attorney General Elyakim Rubinstein — expected within a few days — on whether deporting the 16 men to Gaza was legal.
If Rubinstein approves and the Cabinet determines deportations would be an effective deterrent, the government would proceed, the official said on condition of anonymity.
Rubinstein made an initial recommendation that there were legal grounds for "selective deportation to Gaza" for those people "directly involved in supporting" the militants, the official added.
Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres, a veteran peace campaigner who supports talks with the Palestinians, said he would support the new measures if they win legal approval.
Palestinian Cabinet Minister Saeb Erekat denounced the deportation idea as a war crime and violation of the fourth Geneva Convention, which governs the treatment of civilians in war zones.
"When nations in the year 2002 decide on collective punishment, and decide to deport (families) from one place to another, this is a war crime, and we will pursue it as such," he said.
Ranya Ajouri, a relative of Ali, said Israeli soldiers ordered the families out of the three-story house without giving them a chance to put on clothes or shoes. Told about the possibility that the men would be sent to Gaza, she said, "We have no relation to Ali's activities. Everyone should be responsible for his own behavior."
While the army did not say how many people were detained in connection with the attacks, it said it had arrested 16 militants in sweeps of other villages across the West Bank on Friday for alleged "terrorist activities."
Palestinian officials say they are powerless to assume control because Israeli forces have imposed curfews in the main areas, preventing Palestinian security from operating.
On Friday, the Israeli military said it was lifting curfews in the towns of Qalqiliya and Tulkarem "until further notice," and in Jenin and Hebron during the day Friday. The Israelis have said they would ease restrictions in the Palestinian towns they control if calm is maintained.
Questions about the effectiveness of Israel's reoccupation of West Bank population centers in stopping terror attacks have begun to emerge after the two attacks in Israel this week.
You're right, I'm sorry. There have been other articles about Israel floating the idea of killing relatives of suicide bombers, but I shouldn't mix them up. My initial point remains, though, that going after non-combatants is a waste of action and political capital, at best.
And you can't seriously be suggesting that punishing civilians is going to punish Hamas and al-Qaeda. Do you really think they're going to care about what happens to these people?
And, the article did not mention announcing a policy of shooting non-combatants, you did, so that they won't be used as shields....a remarkable position for a self-described Christian.
Wouldn't it be more logical to send them to Jordan? Gaza is still in Israel proper, and is a staging ground for future attacks?
Maybe, maybe not. Maybe it will have a cumulative effect. The best effect being that it gets them out of the immediate neighborhood.
Oh goodness no, then we'd have more people complaining about Israel's cruelty.
Tell me, did we or any other allied country ever go after Hitler per se? No, we fought the people of Germany (and the people who sided with him). We made a concerted effort to end the *war.* When the *people* and the *military* had been stressed more than enough by the war, the military leadership eventually turned against Hitler.
The choice is yours alone.... "
What beats both is not going after civilians at all, but after the leadership, as I said. Israel has it exactly backwards right now.
Gee, that's a great idea, why didn't anyone think of it before? Obviously they've been doing that. What do you think of their targeted killings? It hasn't been enough. If this reduces the incentive for those idiots to blow themselves and others up, I think Israel should do it immediately.
Actually, there were attempts on his life by Allied covert ops, but that's beside the point. You're comparing apples and oranges - on the one hand, a formidable military force; on the other, a militarily ineffective band of irregulars, whose bark is much worse than its bite. Just take 'em out, that's all. It doesn't require much strategy.
No, we fought the people of Germany (and the people who sided with him).
I'd like to know of any speech by any American or British leader at the time claiming that we were at war with the German "people". One does not make war on peoples, one makes war on armies - or, in cases when there's no actual army, on armed thugs and their leaders. It's about time Israel recognized such an obvious fact.
You're right. It hasn't been enough. They need to go higher. Right now they've just been going after scattered mid-level operatives, with predictable (non-)results. Maybe they feel that it's better "strategy" to keep the big fish around as negotiating tools. Maybe they figure that the enemy they know is better than the enemy they don't know. Maybe they're afraid of what Washington might say. To make a long story short, they lack the political will to do what's necessary to protect their people, and like frustrated adolescents they're looking to turn around instead and start beating on those that they can get away with beating on, even if it does comparatively little to stop terrorism.
"One does not make war on peoples, one makes war on armies"
Correction noted. I guess I was thinking "Germany" itself. We went to war with "Germany" and those countries that supported him.
We also dumped on Japan for killing a lot less people at one time, and those people *were* military people, a legitimate target. They did not deliberately target civilians. How much worse is it that these barbarians targeted civilians in their attack, and continue to do so in smaller numbers everywhere?
In return, we seem to be saying that it is bad to deport or otherwise make uncomfortable families of those who are carrying out or supporting these kinds of actions. Something just isn't right there.
When I said "If we say we won't shoot X kind of people" I was speaking in a hypothetical, though according to traditional rules I should have said "If we were to say" (I think that's a nit that most people interested in actually arguing the point would have overlooked). I am also speaking of going on appearances. If children and teenagers are being used to deliver explosive payloads to other innocents, and will not be deterred, (children may be more easily threatened out of their mission because of their lack of comprehension of the consequences), they become targets, tragic and abhorrent as it is. I personally would shoot to disable, not to kill, in that case. That is extremely difficult on a moving target, and I don't know if I could even bring myself to try, which is why I value men's ability to compartmentalize enough to carry out the hard tasks of this world.
"take 'em out"? Isn't that what they have been trying to do? It's hard enough to take out a crafy wild animal, whose intelligence doesn't compare with a wild human! It would be kind of like trying to pick out a specific wildebeest in the middle of a giant herd, and making your way through the herd to that specific one. You can't just wait for any random one that presents a shot, obviously, you have to hit the right one. When you get close enough, the whole herd will take off. And the one you're after is too smart to come close to the edge or let itself be caught without its living shields that you don't want to harm.
In return, we seem to be saying that it is bad to deport or otherwise make uncomfortable families of those who are carrying out or supporting these kinds of actions. Something just isn't right there.
I would agree that these families don't seem to deserve much respect, as I indicated earlier, but it comes back to that "slippery slope" argument that I brought up earlier. Why is terrorism, as opposed to other forms of belligerency, particularly evil? It's because it targets people who are not involved in the fighting, specifically to avoid the consequences of targeting people who are involved in the fighting. Israel is starting down that path. Note that I'm not equating Israel's proposals with the actions of genuine terrorists, but it's clear they're looking down the wrong road, when there's another option available to them.
"take 'em out"? Isn't that what they have been trying to do?
If they wanted Arafat dead, he'd be dead. Ditto for any of the leaders of Hamas, IJLP, PFLP, and whoever would be foolish enough to succeed them. But Israel lacks the political commitment to go through with it.
It's hard enough to take out a crafy wild animal, whose intelligence doesn't compare with a wild human! It would be kind of like trying to pick out a specific wildebeest in the middle of a giant herd, and making your way through the herd to that specific one. You can't just wait for any random one that presents a shot, obviously, you have to hit the right one. When you get close enough, the whole herd will take off. And the one you're after is too smart to come close to the edge or let itself be caught without its living shields that you don't want to harm.
I fear you might be exaggerating just a little. But I'm sure it's true that in order to do its job completely and effectively, Israel would have to take actions that would probably result in civilian deaths and injuries. That's not the same thing, though, as deliberately going after civilians.
Only because of those who don't understand the constant attack they go through and seem to despise Israel in the first place. What do we do to "terrorists" (David Koresh, Randy Weaver) here? We are many times worse and get away with it. Why is everyone all over Israel for what they're doing?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.