Posted on 07/17/2002 6:38:19 PM PDT by ninenot
U.S. government doesn't trust Americans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted: July 17, 2002 1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2002 WorldNetDaily.com
We're supposed to have a government of the people, for the people and by the people.
In fact, Americans are largely supposed to govern themselves in the system devised by our brilliant founders.
That is no longer the case because the U.S. government in Washington doesn't trust its citizens.
This sad truth has become crystal clear in the wake of the terror attacks of Sept. 11. Instead of enlisting Americans to fight this evil as past governments have in times of war, this administration, with at least the tacit approval of Congress, has used the attacks as an excuse to clamp down on the civil liberties of Americans and to keep closer tabs on law-abiding citizens. At the same time, the government has demonstrated, time and time again, its own startling inability to use its vast resources to prevent massive attacks on the people and even to recognize and identify from where the threats emanate.
The latest example of the government's alarming plans to target the entire population for more scrutiny is the Terrorism Information and Prevention System, or TIPS. Interestingly, the program came to light not through the reporting of any U.S. press outlets, but through a report in the Sydney Morning Herald in Australia and linked by WorldNetDaily.
Under plans outlined on the government's Citizen Corps website, a pilot program launching next month will enlist some 1 million domestic informants in 10 cities to spy on the people. That could mean, if the plan is carried out nationwide, there will be a government snoop for every 24 Americans.
What that means, the Sydney Morning Herald points out, is that the U.S. would have a higher percentage of citizen informants than the former East Germany through the dreaded Stasi secret police. At least 4 percent of Americans would participate in TIPS, under the government's plan.
The TIPS snoops will be recruited by the Department of Justice from among citizens whose work provides access to homes, businesses and transport systems – such as letter carriers, utility employees, truck drivers and train conductors.
The informants' reports will enter databases for future reference and possible action within the Justice Department, related agencies and local police forces. Of course, the targets of such spying will have no knowledge of the dossiers being maintained on them.
All this, of course, also comes in the context of other ominous legislation such as the Patriot Act, which permits a person's home to be searched without his or her knowledge. Bugs can be planted, papers can be seized – all prima facie violations of the Fourth Amendment.
Is this America?
What's going on here?
The government hardly has a sterling track record with its paid employees. What makes it think it will get good information from a network of voluntary informants? What's to prevent these people from acting out on grudges with neighbors? How can the information, to be widely shared within government circles and agencies, be verified and ascertained to be legitimate?
These are just some of the questions raised by this dangerous trend toward government non-accountability.
Government plans demonstrate we are clearly moving to an us-against-them mentality. These plans are not designed to protect the citizens of the United States, they are designed to protect government from the people.
Besides making all of us more fearful of our own government, this plan will have the added effect of making us all suspicious of those around us – our mailman, our meter reader, even the friendly train conductor. That's what happened in East Germany and in other totalitarian countries that instituted such draconian plans.
No matter how friendly a face the government attempts to put on this program, it is not going to fly in the USA. Let the word go out now to one and all who might be tempted to participate in such a program – we don't like domestic spies in the United States. We don't like rats. We don't like snitches. We don't like snoops. We don't like them and we don't need them – not here. Not in America. Not now. Not ever.
If you are saying that Bush is good because Hillary is bad, ya might want to rethink that "logic".
Although this may seem anathema to many, there is a chance history may be repeated (i.e another bush losing to another clinton).Really is the Liberal line.....Anyone who sees Hillary Clinton overcoming her own shortcomings with the American people, overcoming her last name, overcoming Colin Powell or Dr. Rice....really isnt seeing clearly.
And if you notice the Liberals and the Media have already started attacking, and to be perfectly honest with you it seems (to me) that the White House is giving them all the ammunition they need. Example? Whatever you may think of the liberals one thing is for certain .....they are very well versed in the fine art of spin and subtle insinuations. And when the White House starts pushing programs like TIPS, which seriously sounds to me like something Nazi Germany (or to a lesser extent the USSR during the 60s) would have advocated, questions start being asked .....even by conservatives. That is an adolescent observation....TIPS simply asks individuals to keep there eyes open and if they see anything then to contact the Government. It is already an unspoken program nationwide....TIPS simply identifies jobs that have peculiar insight into things that most others do not. The Government would be looking at the same areas if it had the manpower....it doesnt so they enlist citizens. It is actually a good idea given the shortcomings in manpower.......to be honest you shallow observations sound more as alarmist kneejerk Liberalism than well reasoned Conservatism.
A good example of this is yesterday i saw Pat Roberson criticize the Bush plan of TIPS. And this is a person who during the election had organized prayers for Bush to win! So what....Pat Robertson raises questions and that somehow rubberstamps the idea as unamerican?
And then there are the rampant corporate scandals ...some of which implicate Bush and Cheney! You and i both know that this is simply hyperbole angled against the conservatives, but to many of the populace they see the perpetual reports on and on and on, and soon they start to believe this. You sell people short....I dont see it that way. I see the Presidents approval rating remaining high.....I see FOX news channel as the highest rated cable news outlet....I think the people are tired of Liberalism...especially in time of War....
And when 'normal' people start losing money there is a greater likelihood that they will be sufficiently pissed off to allow their emotions to take over the logical mind, and thus they can more readily accept the ubiquitous broadcasts condemning the Republican party.Implies that people are going to start losing money....the economy is strong....alot of ifs in your scenario...
And such things are basically acting as attritive factors, and come election date the chickens may come home to roost for us Republicans.
Actually i was watching this other broadcast yesterday, and this person was basically criticizing the war against terrorism. Basically he was making light of the initiatives Bush has taken against terrorism, and that the terrorists have already done so much they do not need to do any other thing ever! For example UBL spent basically 20 grand (or more) in training his mules to attack us on 9-11. We have spent Billions (with a B), and furthermore it has cost the economy many Billions more. And the costs are rising. Moreover there have been fundamental changes in the American percepion of life, and maybe even in our way of life. People are seriously considering having what is tantamount to civilian spies policing their blocks.
You're thinking too much.....relax....
The FBI is beginning to look like it as during Hoover's terms, and shades of the FBI's Counterintelligence Program (COINTELPRO) are starting to materialize. So is the spectre of the House of Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC) Did you go to the Liberal School of red flag examples? Give it a rest.....anyone thinking these things is a vain reactionary. Reason will win the day....as it already is....only Liberals and crackpots could ignore the reality of the situation and focus on such nonsense.
And the New York Times reported that several FBI officials had tried to push for the scraping of the Fourth Amendment since it 'hampered' their efforts and encouraged lawsuits against them. Oh please.....lose the drama.....stop being a repository and subsequent conduit for Liberal whining.
And then there are the reports of the actions of Adolf Hitler in 1933 when he was chancellor. He invoked article 48 of the Weimar Constitution to suspend certain civil rights in times of national emergency. He later created the SS agencies and the Strom Troopers. Okay Okay...that is enough....you have run your mouth a bit too much....I tried to engage your remarks but you have slowly gone off on a Liberal contrarian diatribe....and here is where I choose to exit the discussion. Sorry Bro.
Subject: George W. Bush
Marital Status: Married
Children: 2
Occupation: President of the United States of America
Education: Attended Phillips Academy preperatory school and from there he attended Yale between 1964 and 1968 where, like his father and grandfather before him, he became a member of the occult Skull and Bones society.
Religion: The subject has been known to attend the pagan Cremation of Care ritual at The Bohemian Grove. The ritual includes the worship and adoration of a 50' tall stone owl, as well as mock human sacrifice.
Suspicious Activities observed: Has supported implementation of numerous unconstitutional laws and provisions and is currently in the process of eliminating specific Constitutional protections afforded to US citizens by the Bill of Rights.
The essence of my post was not to engage to be 'a repository and subsequent conduit for liberal whining' but just to state a personal opinion that has also been voiced from a number of sources with varied backgrounds. And by the way maybe i do 'sell people short,' but because i have perceived them to be deserving of such a low opinion! Sadly the majority of people are afflicted with the malaise of low intellectual acumen and the tendency to fall into 'herd' mentalities, and thus it is with great ease that media pundits can shape (or maybe a better term is indoctrinate) certain thinking patterns in them.
May sound elitist, but true. And credence for this is evidenced in a myriad of areas. For example in the economy that you say is 'strong.' In my investments i have been ceaselessly contrarian, and have reaped great benefits from following that stratagem! While the masses are buying stocks when their prices are up (and have high P/Es) and selling stocks when their prices are low ...I am buying when the prices are low and selling when prices are high! When it comes to education your average American cannot elaborate even on basic political theory, geographical regions or other basic matters. People also seem to bunch together in 'reactive patterns' whenever something arises that is not mundane or orthodox for them. Thus yes......I really sell people short (even in economic terms), but i have valid (and somehwhat Machiavellian) reasons for that.
And as for you assertion that Fox is the no.1 cable network i completely agree with you (and i enjoy Fox every ngiht). However i do not see the significance of that assertion! What was it? And IF it was to say that people are watching more and more Conservative programing i also agree ...but also notice that most people do NOT have cable. It is tantamount to claiming many people are listening to liberal hogwash because CNN viwership has increased by several thousand ....that would also be asinine because CNN is also a cable network and few people (relatively) watch it in the US. Now if we were talkign about broadcast telly.....
As for the President's approval remaining high all i have to say is very true (and very good). HOWEVER it has slowly been undergoing through gradual attrition, and 2004 is still some ways away. A lot could happen between now and then (both positive and negative i should add). And as for G. Bush senior and G. Bush junior statement that there scenarios (Iraq vs global terrorism) are inherently different i guess that is a technically accurate statement, BUT the specifics behind the two initiatives is the same. The public still seems to expect PERCEIVABLE gains against the war on terrorism (even though we have been told repeatedly that this willbe a war that is covert and also protracted for a long time). However the rabble (ooops, there pops the elitist in me, i meant the normal populace) expects to at the very least see some gains ...and not some Jehadi mules at Guatanamo. And if you couple that with the shocks being experienced by the economy (which to me are normal since i invested with that in mind, and thus i know all that is happening is a correction ...but your 'average' rabble just sees his/her wrongly invested cash evaporate and then sees the Nasdaq and Dow take a dip, and based on that any statement that the economy is fundamentally strong seems like unabated mockery)! Remember Bush Sr was one of the prezs with the highest numbers of approval, yet once the economy had 'pinched' enough people it seems enough people forgot about his exploits in the gulf and voted for Klington.
And by the way chances of Hilary running in 2004 are not that high ...i can concede to that. However you can rest assured that the Liberals willl chose the strongest Democrat they can to run, and they will ensure that they limit the number of stupid mistakes ala like the ones they did in the last election.
And some of the statements i posted in that post were lifted from the media (liberal obviously) and i was showing how they are using them against us conservatives. Just because you show what the other team is doing does not make you a receptacle of their views and ideas.
And by the way here is somethign else you posted:
I think the bottom line is that as long as there is a War on Terrorism and the American people percive a credible threat from Terrorists....then GW cannot be defeated.
That is not accurate! The thing is what if the people look at his achievements come 2004, and then they decide maybe SOMEONE ELSE can do a better job (and note we are dealing with public perception here which by inate nature is very fickle are easy to sway ....again my inner Machiavelli rears his head). If that happens Dubya can be usurped by a DemocRat candidate who has been groomed to answer the questions in an 'appropos' mannera nd make the right promises (unless they make the same mistake of chosing Gore and his face of plaster).
Anyways i was not trying to be a conduit for the liberals....just showing what is happening. And if that makes me a 'repository and subsequent conduit for liberal whining' (by the way i love that statement....i wish i had made it first) ....if that makes me such a cocduit then so be it!
"That is not accurate!"
On the contrary, that is the most accurate thing stated by anyone in this thread.
Show me one wartime President of the United States ever voted out of office.
???
OK folks, just imagine the last administration with this kind of unbridled power!!!!
Nothing created for the use of one party cannot be turned against it with a mere change at election time. Once the genie is out of the bottle...
IOW, Bush has a vested interest in maintaining public hysteria over an eternal "war on terrorism." Just like Oceana.
Whether the war is on drugs or terrorism, Eurasia or Eastasia ... "War is the health of the State."
The IRS with a whole army of informants paid to tell on their neighbors?
“Look. If I had access to the archives I could bring up thread after thread of people complaining that the administration was not asking for citizen involvement. The gist being that the "gubiment" says we are at "war" but they want everyone to go back to normal. Then when the "gubimint" decides to ask for that involvement many of the same folks do a complete u-turn and cry police state. I hate hypocrites.”
Texasforever post #69, quoting my post of 4/16/02:
Yes. Why no call for sacrifice? (except in vague terms); public bioterrorism education?; evacuation plans?, or warnings that oil supplies may be interrupted? Americans may now live in the "new normal," but we're hardly prepared psychologically, for a major attack, and are less so as the days go on, and memory fades.
I'm wondering if the next step is to agree to a return of UN inspectors to Iraq -- God help us all.
___________________________________________________________
Where exactly in my words do you find a call for government informants? I talked about education and information – a function that the federal, state and local governments are in a unique position to fulfill without trampling on individual liberties.
I live in a state with a recurring threat of hurricanes – state and local agencies, news media and retail chains regularly distribute “hurricane preparedness” plans, and it doesn’t take more than a few months of living here during hurricane season to get a pretty good idea of how to prepare and where to go if disaster strikes. I’ve also worked for agencies that participate in planning, and had specific assignments in case of emergency.
We’ve had 9+ months of rhetoric about weapons of mass destruction, a whole lot of media hype and hysteria about same, and no clear or consistent information from government about disaster plans for same.
Instead, we hear second-hand reports of “quarantine” and “vaccination,” but no decisions are made, and no information formally distributed to the population in general. Granted, some scenarios, such as nuclear weapons, are largely indefensible, but there are lesser catastophies, such as bio and chem weapons for which there are some remedies – and multi-million dollar plans for these are bandied about in the halls of Congress and the White House, but the American public needs to be ignorant, in order to remain calm, -- so the thinking seems to be
Instead we have a program – hardly publicized at all – described as “a national system for reporting suspicious, and potentially terrorist-related activity. The program will involve the millions of American workers who, in the daily course of their work, are in a unique position to see potentially unusual or suspicious activity in public places. “
The Justice Department apparently failed to consult with the “American workers,” BTW – Fox reported this AM that postal workers -- specifically mentioned as of 7/16 on the citizencorps website as “letter carriers” (but the wording has since magically changed ; see below) – are saying that they will not participate, and that they were not informed of the program before this information was posted to the citizencorps website.
The original wording from the citizencorps website as posted by m1911 on #52 of this thread on 7/16/02:
Operation TIPS - the Terrorism Information and Prevention System - will be a nationwide program giving millions of American truckers, letter carriers, train conductors, ship captains, utility employees, and others a formal way to report suspicious terrorist activity. Operation TIPS, a project of the U.S. Department of Justice, will begin as a pilot program in 10 cities that will be selected.
Operation TIPS, involving 1 million workers in the pilot stage, will be a national reporting system that allows these workers, whose routines make them well-positioned to recognize unusual events, to report suspicious activity. Every participant in this new program will be given an Operation TIPS information sticker to be affixed to the cab of their vehicle or placed in some other public location so that the toll-free reporting number is readily available.
Everywhere in America, a concerned worker can call a toll-free number and be connected directly to a hotline routing calls to the proper law enforcement agency or other responder organizations when appropriate.
Operation TIPS is coming in August 2002.
__________________________________________________________
The wording from the same web page as of today, 7/18/02:
Operation TIPS, administered by the U.S. Department of Justice and developed in partnership with several other federal agencies, is one of the five component programs of the Citizen Corps. Operation TIPS will be a national system for reporting suspicious, and potentially terrorist-related activity. The program will involve the millions of American workers who, in the daily course of their work, are in a unique position to see potentially unusual or suspicious activity in public places.
The Department of Justice is discussing participation with several industry groups whose workers are ideally suited to help in the anti-terrorism effort because their routines allow them to recognize unusual events and have expressed a desire for a mechanism to report these events to authorities.
These workers will use their common sense and knowledge of their work environment to identify suspicious or unusual activity. This program offers a way for these workers to report what they see in public areas and along transportation routes.
All it will take to volunteer is a telephone or access to the Internet as tips can be reported on the toll-free hotline or online. Information received will be entered into the national database and referred electronically to a point of contact in each state as appropriate. This is not a national 911 center, and callers are expected to dial 911 for emergency local response.
Industries that are interested in participating in this program will be given printed guidance material, flyers and brochures, about the program and how to contact the Operation TIPS reporting center. This information can be distributed to workers or posted in common work areas. Operation TIPS is scheduled to be launched in late summer or early fall 2002. The goal of the program is to establish a reliable and comprehensive national system for reporting suspicious, and potentially terrorist-related, activity. By establishing one central reporting center, information from several different industries can be maintained in a single database. Operation TIPS will be phased in across the country to enable the system to build its capacity to receive an increasing volume of tips.
__________________________________________________________
I suggest your “hate” might be more properly directed at the “hypocrites” in our federal government.
I want someone to tell me honestly why we have to lose some of our Civil Liberties?
It is becoming hard even for me to sit still and say I trust the decisions the Government is making in this case. The ramifications Constitutionally are just huge for us and future generations.
The last line was a link to "Volunteer Now!"
Just like the postal workers "volunteered?"
billybudd-
"I just love it how you label any deviance from the Bush Party Propaganda as "liberal"."
You can deviate from the President all you want......Liberalism qualifies itself....me pointing it out isnt labeling anything.....
Commie Basher-
"Bush has a vested interest in maintaining public hysteria over an eternal "war on terrorism."
Black Helicopters...
Black Helicopters...
Black Helicopters...
Black Helicopters...
Black Helicopters...
I do not like it Vbathang4 when someone takes PART of a quote from me and uses it to compose an entire vitriolic post against me!
THIS was the rest of my post immediately AFTER 'That is not accurate:' word for word:
That is not accurate! The thing is what if the people look at his achievements come 2004, and then they decide maybe SOMEONE ELSE can do a better job (and note we are dealing with public perception here which by inate nature is very fickle are easy to sway ....again my inner Machiavelli rears his head). If that happens Dubya can be usurped by a DemocRat candidate who has been groomed to answer the questions in an 'appropos' mannera nd make the right promises (unless they make the same mistake of chosing Gore and his face of plaster).
That was the ENTIRE statement.
Thus obviously as long as there is a war on terrorism GW is seen as some sort of 'savior-king' who will defend us from the dragon ......but my point was what if, come 2004, nothing has changed (in the eys of the public since to me it seems most of the victories against terrorism will be covert)? Or even worse what if another terrorist attack occurs to let's say a water treatment center that kills maybe 100.....or a 1000 or more?
You really think the public will conitnue seeing GW as the 'savior-king' or as a loser(I know the use of loser is unjustified since as i said there have been victories in the war against terrorism, but due to the simple fact these victories cannot be released to the public for security reasons it will be very easy for the media and the DemocRats to label the prez a loser! And what will be his defence: 'I hve done a lot, i just cannot tell you about it!' That will not stand with many people ....especially if another terrorist strike occurs).
Anyway that was my point. And maybe if you had looked at it before automaticaly jumping into your vitriol you would have noticed i am not against GW .....i am just saying that (in post 67) certain actions (and before you start posting 'example' in red letters they are in my previous posts) will come back to bite him in the @$$ come election time.
And unless his stratagems change i honestly see what happened to his dad (another prez who had HUGE ratings due to the Gulf War, but who tanked prior to the elections due to such stuff as bad economic decisions coupled with an uber-charismatic democratic candidate) happen to GW. If you look at the other camp (the DemocRats) you will notice that they are silently hedging themselves and only taking potshots against us. Why? They are preparing for an offense and for now letting the media (which is mostly liberal) lay the 'evidence' foundation that they will use when election time comes near.
And maybe by posting this i become to you a 'liberal conduit.' However i always tell those around me that it really does not bother me what those around me think of me since in the end i always seem to get the final laugh both in money and political matters. Thus think away and call me a liberal conduit or whatever. But you should know two things: First thing is that my post (67)was not an attack on GW at all .....just my thoughts on what might happen in 2004 if the way things are starting to play out continue in the same trend. Second of all posting replies to people in acerbic red BLOCK letters may cause some to be afraid and not post stuff that you consider 'wrong' or 'traitorous aka liberal' but if the substance of the post is true then whether or not people post it there is a chance what is (or would have) been written will still occur. What i wrote in post 67 i knew would annoy several Freepers (i think i even included a 'Flame-proof' warning at its inception), but even if there are some who would not want to hear any of it (thankfully i have only received ONE negative reply) the main substance in the post still threatens us Republicans. Putting ones head in the sand ...and sending red and blue BLOCK posts to Freepers .....is not going to alter something that may very well happen.
But i guess some people cannot stand contrarian statements (which by the way also does not bother me since such people allow me to make a killing in the stock market).
Welcome to the candidates debate..
Talk about it, shout about, any way you choose...
Anyway you look at it you lose...
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