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Astronomers Hope to Find E.T. in Next 25 Years
Reuters via Yahoo! ^ | Tue Jul 16, 6:34 AM ET | By Belinda Goldsmith

Posted on 07/16/2002 7:40:55 AM PDT by Momaw Nadon

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To: VadeRetro
If you want a Voltaire reference, how about "Cut the cr*p and buzz off?"
221 posted on 07/16/2002 7:43:23 PM PDT by apochromat
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To: VadeRetro
From Media Frauds on Crop Circles


 

THE ANATOMY OF DECEPTION.

A look at the claims of a 'leading' group of supposed circle makers.

Since 1994 a group of three artists has laid claim to some of England's most elaborate crop circles. The group originally named Team Satan has since changed its name to 'The circlemakers'- a name seemingly adopted to cause maximum confusion; after all, the real Circlemakers have been involved in making crop circles around the world as far back as the late 1800s, some supported by eyewitness reports claiming that an invisible whorl motion, lasting under fifteen seconds, flattens the crop in spiral fashion, without damaging the plants.

When a massive crop circle materialized beneath the gaze of Stonehenge in 1996, it was alledged by one of their close friends that the group made the said fractal pattern- a representation of the computer-generated Julia Set fratal- despite the fact that two pilots, a security guard and a gamekeeper all claim the formation appeared within a fifteen minute window one Sunday afternoon. It subsequently took a team of eleven surveyors five hours just to measure the design.

The same claim appears to have been made on a pattern three times the size at Windmill Hill, since its blueprint now adorns the home page of their web site- all this despite the logistics requiring a circle to be made approximately every 58 seconds. A surveying company who analyzed the site quoted a minimum of five days just to mark the site alone.

No wonder that with their ability to bend the rules of physics, levitate above the untouched wheat and master the laws of invisibility, 'the circlemakers' have since become media darlings, gaining commissions from the BBC and Sky Television, even Mitsubishi, for whom they made a crop circle shaped like a van over the course of two days, requiring the use of daylight and police protection.

At the end of the 1998 season they were commissioned by the BBC to construct a simple roulette of 100 circles (above left), without getting caught. As it turns out, they were caught within the first few minutes of their endeavour, proving just how hard it is to hoax patterns in the English countryside. Even in the dark. The final design, based on straighforward ninefold geometry, failed to reproduce any of the unusual biophysical and electromagnetic features already proved to exist in the real phenomenon; even the geometry itself was flawed. Despite the hit-and -miss result, this is Team Satan/the circlemakers best attempt at generating a pattern that almost fits the unalterable laws of sacred geometry, although it has taken them five years to get this far.

In the summer of 1999 'the circlemakers' were sponsored by the Daily Mail to create a crop formation beside Avebury stone circle (above left). The triangle format, containing 33 rough circles and incised with straight edges, was supposed to depict the 3-D illusion often referred to as Necker's Cube.

Despite the effort, the damage caused by the trampling of plants quickly showed how people systematically fail to leave them undamaged; from the above analysis, the geometry shows just how far off alignment the simple design is.

We can see a classic comparison between hoaxers' work and the genuine phenomenon: above right, a fabulous example from 1994, the year the hoaxers claim to have started, and ironically also placed beside the famous stone circle. This pattern is visually far more complex than the 1999 hoax design, suggesting that the hoaxers are getting worse at their craft in relation to their experience! While the latter is merely a design without meaning, the 'spider's web' design, by contrast, incorporates the harmonic laws of sound frequency, as proved by experiments in cymatics during the 1960s.

The 'spider's web' crop circle also encodes Hawkins' Fifth Theorem- part of a series of new mathematical theorems discovered in crop circles. These are based on the works of Euclid, yet these theorems are missing from Euclid's thirteen Treatises on Mathematics- the foundation of our system today. Additionally, this design is encoded with diatonic ratios- mathematical fractions fundamental to the music scale, and the chances of anyone hitting these by accident are one million to one.

How is it possible these forgers have the ability to encode such complex information one night, yet fail miserably the next, even with the aid of light?

Take another example, from Longwood Warren in 1995 (above left), a crop formation depicting the orbits of planets in the inner solar system to an accuracy of 99%. The number of circles in the 'asteroid belt' depicts the exact number of years the alignment shown actually occurs in the heavens; furthermore, the overlay clearly demonstrates Hawkins' Theorem II, where the relationship between the large circle and asteroids is an exact octave. This one occurred in total darkness. Compare this to TEam Satans' effort on the right, created in remote New Zealand with help from two powerful lights suspended above the field, and witnessed by the local townspeople. The hoaxers clearly fail to bisect a simple hexagonal framework in the centre, and the rest of the design falls out of alignment at most points. Furthermore, the depiction of the Mandelbrot Set- normally an elegant cardeoid shape made from a computer-generated series of mathematical calculations- is nothing more than a crude circle with a chunk removed from the top.

But how were they able to achieve such a complex pattern anyway? It has since been revealed that this field was staked out for two days with ropes and pins, prior to the making of the formation. Little wonder that when the work was aired in 'Secrets of Deception' no measuring appears to be taking place as the formation is made.

Not to take credit away from their elaborate endeavour on the other side of the world. Yet when the hoaxers tried to achieve the same exercise back in more densely-populated England, they were immediately caught, a problem the real Circlemakers have never experienced. Which just goes to show how much harder it is to pull the wool over people's eyes when you try to do this kind of thing back in a country where the local residents actually outnumber the sheep!

So when you see Team Satan/the circlemakers (names Rod Dickinson, John Lundberg, Will Russell) laying claim to crop circles whose geometrical, biophysical and electromagnetic properties have, to this day, proved to have been created beyond the capacity of boot and plank of wood, you are witnessing a deception in itself. By grafting their inferior work to the real phenomenon, they gain attention through association and without showing a slither of evidence in support of their outlandish claims.

It is worth remembering that any number of terrorist organizations often claim the same bomb, demonstrating just how much easier it is to get credit and the glory than to perform the work yourself.

 

UPDATE

New evidence suggests the above team has laid claim to someone else's work. According to their claim, featured in The Daily Mail, they made the Avebury hoax between 11.30 pm and 5 am. But two people have come forward to say they were standing by the said field between midnight and 12.45 am, and no pattern was evident in the crop; since this was the night of the full moon, visibility was perfect, and besides, the field in question lies on a prominent incline. A local shop manager whose bedroom window overlooks the field also verifies that at 2 am no crop circle was in place.

There is no doubt the design did not conform to the accepted phenomenon, but this brings up more questions: If Team Satan/the circlemakers did not make this design, who or what did?

The Daily Mail article also states that a number of eight bar gates were crossed as the team reached the field. The problem is, farm gates in Wiltshire are either five- or six bars. So one has to wonder, were the team even anywhere near Wiltshire when the hoax was made?

Further evidence uncovered by researcher Lucy Pringle adds to the scam. The originator of the article, reporter Sam Taylor, appears not to exist. Queries to Ms. Taylor are directed to the Daily Mirror, specifically the desk of Graham Brough. Long-time followers of crop circles will know this man as the creator of Doug and Dave, another crop circle scam story. Readers are encouraged to ring up both newspapers and demand to know why this obvious deception has been perpetrated at the expense of the public.

My own analysis is suggesting that this crop circle, along with two other crop circles of the season, may have been the product of weapons testing. The ground evidence suggests that an energy in the microwave region has been used. Genuine crop circles contain traceable electromagnetic energy (in the mid to high MHz range), which ally with biological and brainwave states (these would be responsible for the changes in chromosomes in crop circles plants, and for the range of physiological affects on visitors); microwave however operates in the GHz range and tends to leave plants and soil sterile (the opposite is true in genuine crop circles). Technology capable of transmiting coded information at such a range was recently switched on in Alaska, under the U.S. military's secret project HAARP. It's just a thought...

 

By Freddy Silva. This article can be disseminated free, for non-profit use only.

Images © Freddy Silva, Colin Andrews, The Southland Times.

 

REPLY TO DICKINSON CRITICISM.

Since this report was uploaded, Rod Dickinson of the Team Satan/ the circlemakers has responded with a number of accusations and observations on his web site, which he is perfectly entitled to do since I have taken the trouble to dissect his claims. Here is my reply:

DICKINSON: claims NOT to have made the Julia and Triple Julia Set crop circles.

REPLY: Judging from the way Mr. Dickinson exhibits these colossal formations on his web site, one is led to believe he did, after all if you are claiming to be 'England's circlemakers' why would you display work that does not belong to you? Unless, of course, the intention is to claim through association, a technique often used to great effect in advertising. Secondly, the original allegation was made to researchers by another well-known hoaxer Rob Irving, a friend of the team. Mr. Dickinson now claims that he knows who really made these formations. And frankly, I would love to know- given how a number of very reliable eyewitness place the 'Julia Set' as having materialized within a fifteen minute window, and beside a busy tourist site during daylight, the perpetrators would have mastered the ability of invisibility and levitation alone to do the work.

DICKINSON: (referring to the Milk Hill hoax 1998) "we made a formation for the BBC consisting of 100 circles in 2.5 hrs ...An average of 60 seconds per circle"

REPLY: We'll have to take the 2.5 hrs at face value since no independent judge was there to witness. To their credit, this is a very good endeavour, created under accepted circle-making conditions. However, their far superior creation in New Zealand, also containing the same number of circles, pre-staked with string, under artificial lighting, took three hours longer to make. Perhaps the team was sluggish in New Zealand! Mr. Dickinson claims that his Milk Hill effort matches the rate of 58 seconds per circle required for the 'Triple Julia Set', but what he conveniently forgets is that the size of circles in this genuine crop circle were far in excess of his; that each of its three spiralling arms measured over 900 ft- by comparison, his Milk Hill hoax was a mere 180 ft in diameter. Furthermore, I was at the 'Triple Julia Set' the morning of its appearance- no plants were damaged, every circle was created by an organized spiral pattern, the centre of every circle was crafted individually with every conceivable variation of swirl. The Milk Hill floor pattern was nothing more than a trampled mess with no semblance of spiral or central ornament other than signs of hasty movement by planks. So Mr. Dickinson's criteria for creating crop circles 'under similar conditions' appears to be a little misleading.

DICKINSON: "The logo in the middle of the formation (belonging to our sponsors Yellow Pages, which Freddy mistakes for 'bad geometry'!)..."

REPLY: In my original analysis I made this error based on rash judgement, so it's a lesson to me to avoid doing it again. My apologies to all. That said, my analysis on this page is of the TOTAL design. This is certainly not rash, and clearly shows that the only geometry that fits the design, the ninefold type, is clearly missed by a substantial margin. Genuine crop circles, whose alignments are based on the laws of harmonics and sacred geometry, do not contain these errors. Mr. Dickinson also conveniently avoids my analysis of 'his' Avebury hoax which contains even more noticeable errors despite it being a simpler triangular format (probably because he had no hand in it, according to the eyewitness reports stated above).

DICKINSON: "Freddy also feels that the connecting paths that lay out the geometry of the BBC formation were uncharacteristic of the 'genuine' phenomenon. But oddly in a fit of selective amnesia Freddy forgot that both Windmill Hill and The Stonehenge Julia (he regards both as 'genuine', not man made) were characterized by very prominent 'connecting paths'."

REPLY: Mr. Dickinson confuses a 'connecting path' with an 'underlying path'. An underlying path is often a trace marker used as a skeleton from which the crop circle design expands. To my knowledge both hoaxers and Circlemakers (the real ones) use this technique, often in association with more complex patterns. Roy Dutton, Pat Delgado and Stanley Morcom have researched this at length, some postulating that a thin 'pencil-type' energy source programmes the stems to bend and lay in this fashion. This is certified by dowsing, which reveals a residue of electromagnetic energy; the hoax underlying paths do not dowse.

What I refer to as 'connecting paths' are the breaks in the circle walls that people make as they walk from circle to circle; they are also created by the initial treading of plants to establish the reference points of the design to be created. These connecting paths are evident in Mr. Dickinson's work, but were not evident in both Julia Sets until after groups of people began walking through the formations.

DICKINSON: "Freddy also didn't like the the profile of a new car model for Mitsubishi that we created a few weeks later - claiming the wheels were crooked."

REPLY: They were crooked- I measured them. If someone else who measured them can tell me I'm wrong I would be more than willing to admit an error on my part. Regardless, the car was a good piece of work- but once again the mess on the ground revealed the human origin.

DICKINSON: "The background to Silva's criticism of our efforts last year and in previous years is coloured by the fact that when Silva reported the Avebury triangle on his website 'the crop circular' he claimed it had been Psychically predicted... As soon as the story broke in the media, that we had made it, this report mysteriously disappeared from his web site to be replaced with less than complimentary commentary, claiming we, the local farmer and the Mail were, in our own ways ridiculing crop circle researchers."

REPLY: The background to my criticism, like most other researchers, is that Team Satan/the circlemakers have been deceiving people and the press into believing they are behind the crop circle phenomenon. There is no doubt that this team is perhaps the most talented in terms of creating the more elaborate man-made crop circles, and certainly provide a good barometer with which to judge the real thing by. This is useful for research. But the media then hails them as the answer to the enigma, helping to confuse the issue in the public's mind and making people switch off; a similar technique was used by the British Military at Bratton in 1990, and even Doug and Dave's story was traced to an establishment in Somerset with connections to the military.

They have also, no doubt, profited financially from this. In my original article I DID claim that the design had been predicted- I did NOT claim that it was genuine. As I explained to Mr. Dickinson's colleague, John Lundberg, at a lecture last year, psychics predict an EVENT. If you ask for specific information, a good intuitive will also tell you if the event will be man made or otherwise. It was established beforehand that a formation was about to appear at Avebury, that was all, so my report was correct. Secondly, the formation was declared a hoax by myself when I visited Avebury shortly after its appearance that morning, and I e-mailed several colleagues of my opinion. The design was a mess, crushed plants everywhere, and no reference to the local lines and eddies of electromagnetic energy, of which there is plenty at this location- even sheep can locate this stuff! The confusion in my original report stemmed from an interview with a local resident who had commissioned a crop circle design to be made at the same location to advertise a concert. Since I was stretched to analyse far more important events, it then took me a week before I found the time to update my report with more complete evidence, by which time the Daily Mail had printed their article (why does it take a newspaper a week to print a piece of news? Odd). So it did not 'mysteriously disappear', nor was my initial- and correct- observation brushed under the carpet, as Rod implies; it was made public and at the rate I was receiving it.

In the end, the Daily Mail DID use the event to trash and humiliate the phenomenon and the people involved, once again without referring to the vast amount of evidence that already exists in support of the real phenomenon. Mr. Dickinson and co. are astute individuals, and given the manner in which the cynical press views crop circles, I doubt they believed for one minute that the work they were well paid to perform would have been used without malice of some kind by their employers. As for the farmer who granted permission for the hoax, he went on to make a hefty sum by charging people entry to what he knew was a fraud all along. A nice piece of deception all around? I'll let readers decide for themselves.

As it now turns out, Mr. Dickinson and TEam Satan/the circlemakers' story does not match the evidence and the eyewitness statements, so it is now doubtful these individuals made the formation at all.

Regardless, I thank Rod Dickinson for taking the trouble to express his side of the story and to point out any discrepancies in our opposing points of view.

 

Return to MEDIA FRAUDS.

e-maile-mail

222 posted on 07/16/2002 7:44:25 PM PDT by FormerLurker
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To: VadeRetro

 

Text by Freddy Silva.

 

Crop circles are not a modern phenomenon.

They are mentioned in academic texts of the late 17th Century, and almost 200 cases- some with eyewitness accounts- have been reported prior to 1970. Since then, some eighty eyewitnesses as far flung as British Columbia and Australia have reported crop circles forming in under twenty seconds; cases are often accompanied by sightings of incandescent or brightly-coloured balls of light, shafts of light or structured flying craft.

Serious attention was given to the simple circles in 1980 in southern England. The designs appeared primarily as simple circles, circles with rings, and variations on the Celtic cross up into the mid-1980s. Then they developed straight lines, creating pictograms, not unlike petroglyphs found at sacred sites thoughout the world. After 1990 the designs developed exponentially in complexity, and today it is not unusual to come across crop glyphs mimicking computer fractals and elements that relate to fourth dimensional processes in quantum physics. Their sizes have also increased, some occupying areas as large as 200,000 sq ft. To date there have been over 10,000 reported and documented crop circles throughout the world, with some 90% emerging from southern England. While many still go unreported each year, the emegence of the phenomenon in the world media and the internet has allowed more information to be lodged.

If you happen to buy the story that all crop circles were originated by two sexagenarians armed with planks of wood, garden rollers and string, you are not in the minority. Once in a while, governments like to control public interest in unexplained phenomena by generating a disinformation method called 'debunking', a technique invented during the Cold War for the sad purpose of controlling mass opinion (this was the prime motive of the 1953 Robertson Panel, details of which are obtained under the US Freedom of Information Act). The method is very effective because the media provides little or no scientific or factual data with which the public can form an educated opinion on the subject. This absence of evidence is then replaced by ridiculing the subject through association with other 'fringe' topics; so-called experts are brought-in to explain away all the events as freak weather conditions or as the work of general pranksters, even sexually excited animals!

According to TV documentaries, all crop circles up to 1992 were made by two simple, elderly men called Doug and Dave. It has since been discovered by researchers such as George Wingfield and Armen Victorian that the D&D story was tied to the British Ministry of Defense- in collusion with the CIA, among others. Evidence supplied by a high-ranking informant in the British Ministry of Defence suggested that the government had every intent to discredit the phenomenon by putting forward two hoaxers in an effort to quell growing public interest in crop circles (for a fuller story see Crop Circles History 1991). When confronted to provide evidence on certain claimed formations, Doug and Dave changed their story, even reversing previous claims; or they simply remained silent when asked to explain the list of features found in the genuine phenomenon. When they claimed making all the formations around the English county of Hampshire, for example, it was pointed out that half the known formations had actually occured in another county- "Er, no, we didn't do those either," they replied. In the end, not even Doug and Dave knew which ones they had made. And although they claim to have made hoaxes since 1978- at the time the published date of the first design- unpublished evidence confirmed crop circles dating back into the 1890s. The public has never heard these retractions, nor been given the opportunity to compare the mess created by D&D with the mathematical symmetry of the real phenomenon.

In 1998, however, the surviving member of the deceptive duo did make an incredible admission to British newspapers that he'd been guided by an unknown force.

Since Doug and Dave's inauguration, many copycat hoaxers have appeared on the scene. Some do it to disprove or derail researchers, some for profit, some because they are sociopaths, some because they genuinely believe they can communicate back to the phenomenon (with very interesting results, I may add). Prior to 1989 the hoaxing problem was virtually unheard of. After 1990 designs of man-made origin vary by year- in 1992 and 1998 it was as high as 90%, in 1996 as low as 20%.

That people with a good amount of training can go into a field and eventually create a coherent pattern has never been the issue- recently, a group of known hoaxers called TEam Satan/the circlemakers was paid to go to conveniently out-of-the-way New Zealand to make an elaborate formation for The Discovery Channel. The deceptive tactics used to trick a viewing public into accepting the hoax theory are dealt with here.

The issue is that no man-made crop circle has satisfactorily replicated the features associated with the real phenomenon, and this has baffled scientists and researchers. Crop circles are created by a force seemingly at odds with modern science. Central to the hoax argument is that a physical object is required to flatten the crop to the ground, resulting in the breaking of the plant stems. In genuine formations the stems are not broken but bent (left), normally about an inch off the ground and near the plant's first node. The plants appear to be subjected to a short and intense burst of heat which softens the stems to drop just above the ground at 90ª, where they reharden into their new and very permanent position without damage. Plant biologists are baffled by this phenomenon, and farmers, who know how the land ticks, have no explanation either. It is the singlemost method of identifying the real phenomenon. Research and laboratory tests suggest that microwave or infrasound may be the only method capable of producing such an effect.

Crop circles are sometimes accompanied by trilling sounds, since captured on tape and analysed by NASA as being artificial in origin, with a harmonic component in the infrasonic range.

The detection of electromagnetism also differentiates genuine formations from fakes. This naturally-occuring energy is known to exist at ancient sites such as stone circles, long barrows, tumuli, dolmens and menhirs, and in churches and cathedrals which were built upon these sites. Crop circles, sacred sites and other places of worship are also found upon intersecting points along the Earth's invisible energy grid, and the size and shape of a crop circle is typically determined by the area of these 'node' points on the Earth's surface. The frequencies of this energy are associated with changes in brainwave patterns; they also affect the body's biophysical rhythm, so it is not unusual to find reports of people experiencing heightened states of awareness and healings in crop circles­a situation also common to sacred sites. People may also experience dizziness, disorientation and nausea, again effects caused by prolonged exposure to both infrasound or microwave frequencies.

Biophysical evidence includes plants' expanded epidermal walls, and drastically extended node bends in fresh formations (normalright, crop circle far right); also observed are distortions of seed embryos, and the creation of expulsion cavities in the plants as if they have been heated from the inside. In genuine formations there is also a disruption of the plant's crystalline structure, as these microscope photos demonstrate (left). Yet in all cases, the plants are not damaged and will continue to grow and ripen if left untouched. This would not be possible had they been trampled by force.

Genuine crop circles are areas of gently laid and swirled plants which create a floor in mathematical proportions similar to the Golden Mean, the vortex used by nature to create precision organisms such as shells, sunflowers, the spatial relationship of the bones in the human hand, even galaxies. The floor of crop circles can have up to five layers of weaving, all in counterflow to each other, with every seed head intact and placed beside each other as if arranged in a museum case; the centres can contain nested, woven, crested, or wreathed swatches of plants; sometimes the center will consist of a single standing plant.

Genuine crop circles are not perfectly round but slightly elliptical (a hoax, requiring a fixed central rope, cannot achieve this adequately). Their edges are crisply defined from the flattened crop as if drawn with a compass and incised with surgical precision. Hoaxes, by comparison, bear a stylistic resemblance to tuffs of greasy, uncombed hair- and, of course, all their plants have been trampled, bruised and crushed.

Other anomalies indicate an increase infrared output within and around a new formation, indicating that both the heat content of the plants and the underlying watershed have been affected. Evidence even exists of four non-naturally occuring, short-life radioactive isotopes in the soil inside genuine crop circles (these dissipate after three or four hours); the soil in around them appears to have been baked.

Mathematically, genuine crop circles encode obscure theorems based on Euclidian geometry as well as the unalterable principles of sacred geometry. They have the capacity to alter the local electromagnetic field so that compasses cannot locate north; cameras, cellular phones and batteries fail to operate, and aircraft equipment fails whilst flying above them. Then there are levels of background radiation up to 300% above normal, radio frequencies falling dramatically or rising sharply within their perimeters, animals in local farms avoiding that particular area or simply acting agitated hours before one materializes, and car batteries in entire villages failling to operate the morning after one is found nearby. In some of the major events, entire towns have been left without power.

Since genuine formations materialize at crossing points along the Earth's electromagnetic energy currents, they are influencing the energy pattern of local phehistoric sites. They reference local Neolithic sites in size/shape/direction, and are dowsable upon entry, with as many as 150 concentric rings of energy outside their physical perimeter, like ripples in a pond. In fact, a year after they have been harvested and the field ploughed and re-sown, the energy imprint of the formations will still be dowsed, long after their physical traces have vanished.

This area of research has allowed for the possibility of crop circles as a healing force, and they are already being successfully employed in radionics, flower essences and resonance therapy around the world, both for people and environments in distress.

Crop circles are generally formed at night between the hours of 2-4 am, traditionally during the shortest evenings of the English year when darkness lasts but four hours, in fields eagerly watched by farmers, military, laser alarms, scientists or hundreds of enthusiasts in their sleeping bags hoping to be the lucky ones to witness a crop circle forming. Some of those lucky few have witnessed large balls of brilliant colour project a beam of golden light into a field which next morning displays a new crop circle.Yet despite many stakeouts and fields rigged with top surveylance equipment, crop circles have appeared out of the mist right under the noses of those looking for them. On one occasion, the Circlemakers even materialized in full view of the British Prime Minister's heavily-guarded country residence.

At Stonehenge in 1996 (left), a pilot reported seeing nothing while flying above the monument, yet 15 minutes later this huge 900 ft formation resembling the Julia Set computer fractal, and comprising 149 meticulously layed circles, lay beside the well-patrolled monument. It took a team of 11­including myself­no less than five hours just to survey the formation.

Still not convinced? This web site contains a sampling of the on-going research dedicated to enlightening the public. More will be added as time goes by. Look at the pictures, study the research or better still, visit a genuine crop circle. You'll get the message pretty quickly.

And when you do, tell this story to a friend.

 

 

Julia Set photo ©Colin Andrews. Other photos by Freddy Silva, Michael Hesemman, BLT.

e-maile-mail

223 posted on 07/16/2002 7:48:34 PM PDT by FormerLurker
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To: Ahban
Any other kind of life is just pure speculation. It is not based on fact.

The point is that you must refute the speculation before you can make arguments about the probability of us being here. The total probability is the sum of all possibilities; unless we know what they are, how can we compute the sum? You can look at the specific path of a falling leaf and correctly declare it exquisitely improbable, but the probabilities of all possible paths add up to one.

224 posted on 07/16/2002 7:50:54 PM PDT by Physicist
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To: FormerLurker
How nice of you to dump the whole literature of your silly little cult onto Jim Rob's server space! I've seen this syndrome before . . .
225 posted on 07/16/2002 7:54:20 PM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro
We have stumbled upon the medved of crop circles. Now we have a new toy to play with.
226 posted on 07/16/2002 7:56:30 PM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: PatrickHenry
We have stumbled upon the medved of crop circles.

The parallelism with certain other delusional systems is sharp and clear. It's the same canned speech about closed minds, etc. Dumping long articles in-line. The tendency to say, "Well, how about this over here, then?" when something is debunked.

But you can have this one. I'm for bed.

227 posted on 07/16/2002 8:05:59 PM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: FormerLurker
Another debunking of crop circles: The Mystery of the Crop Circles .
228 posted on 07/16/2002 8:08:00 PM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: FormerLurker
Loads of crop circle debunking on Crank.net, just scroll down for several articles: CRANK DOT NET.
229 posted on 07/16/2002 8:12:16 PM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: VadeRetro
Since you seem to have a problem following links, I took the liberty of posting some material that might enlighten you.

The standard spew from someone whose delusional system is under attack. The burden of proof isn't on me here. I know you don't think so, but trust me on this. It's on the people who say the circles have anything to do with ET.

Sorry, but if you think Doug and Dave (or any of their peers) made the crop circles I'm talking about, you are the one who is delusional. And I'm sorry, but I'm not just going to "trust you on this".

As the article said, if undergraduates can do it, you don't need aliens. If you don't need aliens, it's unjustified to put them in. (That's what that "Occam's Razor" stuff is all about.)

Which article are you referring to? If you're talking about the confession of a "hoaxster" who couldn't even make a straight line in the wheat, he said, "As for the identity of those who created the complicated mathematical and fractal patterns that appeared in the mid-1990s, I have no idea. But Occam's razor suggests they were more likely to be undergraduates than aliens."

  1. He didn't say undergraduates COULD do it. He said that this so-called "Occam's razor" theorem SUGGESTS that undergraduates were MORE THAN LIKELY responsible. That is a far cry from undergraduates actually having done it.
  2. This person gives no evidence to support his claims, but instead, makes wild assumtions while discarding all of the evidence available.

Why do you give so much credence to this self admitted con artist, while ignoring all of the facts pertaining to this topic? Do YOU have an agenda?

If you are simply too closed minded to see the facts for what they are, no amount of discussion will change your mind.

230 posted on 07/16/2002 8:17:24 PM PDT by FormerLurker
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To: VadeRetro
How nice of you to dump the whole literature of your silly little cult onto Jim Rob's server space! I've seen this syndrome before . . .

Yeah, we wouldn't want to clutter the space with FACTS now would we...

So those who seek truth are part of a "silly little cult" now, right? Then perhaps the majority of FReepers are a cult in your opinion?

231 posted on 07/16/2002 8:20:24 PM PDT by FormerLurker
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To: bzrd; galt-jw
There is nothing sacred about geometry within the context of my theological veiw.

You might feel differently if you knew what it was.

Sacred Geometry Discovery

Sacred Geometry Home Page by Bruce Rawles

LOST SECRETS OF EARLY CHRISTIANITY

232 posted on 07/16/2002 8:26:59 PM PDT by FormerLurker
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To: Physicist
The point is that you must refute the speculation before you can make arguments about the probability of us being here

Sheesh. It is NOT up to me to refute the speculation, it is up to the speculator to offer some supporting FACTS for their speculation.

I could speculate that there is another planet where there are unicorns and pigs really DO fly out of the end of central digestive tubes. Then I could claim it is up to YOU to refute that speculation. I'd be wrong. It is just what I HOPE for, not what I have actual evidence for. But you will never be able to prove that such a planet does not exist- for one thing, proving negatives is really tough!

Here is why I think Earth is unique in the universe..

http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/design_evidences/20020502_solar_system_design.html?main

I realize that these parameters are for carbon based life as we know it, but until we get FACTS supporting the existence of some other kind, what else can we do?

Look, I am not wanting to fight about this. I hope there is something all of the scientists are missing and that advanced life is abundant. Show me to be wrong, please- on this one I won't mind. But do it with facts, not insisting that it is up to ME to disprove your unsupported speculations.

233 posted on 07/16/2002 8:50:38 PM PDT by Ahban
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To: VadeRetro
The parallelism with certain other delusional systems is sharp and clear.

You're argument rests solely on invectives and ridicule. You have offered the opinion of a self admitted fraud as gospel. You appear to be either threatened by the idea that these circles exist and weren't created by "hoaxsters". Might your whole world fall apart if you don't spew venom over this?

You have proven nothing but your insecurity, and perhaps your state of mind as well..

de·lu·sion   Pronunciation Key  (d-lzhn)
n.
    1. The act or process of deluding.
    2. The state of being deluded.
  1. A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.
  2. Psychiatry. A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.

Since I have given you invalidating evidence to your belief that these are all simply man-made formations, and you still hold your false belief, I can safely assume that you have a bit of a problem.

234 posted on 07/16/2002 8:52:32 PM PDT by FormerLurker
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To: VadeRetro
The tendency to say, "Well, how about this over here, then?" when something is debunked.

Indeed; can "wildly elliptical" crop circles with a probability of being man-made of one in 1720 be far behind?

235 posted on 07/16/2002 9:01:57 PM PDT by longshadow
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To: PatrickHenry
Another debunking of crop circles: The Mystery of the Crop Circles .

You're obviously not following the links that I've posted, specifically the one I posted in post #222. I'll repost it..

Media Frauds on Crop Circles

In relation to the claims made on 'The Mystery of the Crop Circles', you should click on the following link..

THE GREAT A&E AND DISCOVERY CHANNEL CROP CIRCLES HOAX.

In order to avoid being accused of "flooding the FR servers", I'll leave it to you to follow the links. I will paste a short excerpt from the link however..

Researchers were conned into doing 'unbiased' interviews and submitting research for documentaries that, at the time, were portrayed as fair-minded attempts to broadcast a balanced view of the phenomenon. Once these stations had the necessary material, the producers were apparently told to blatantly ignore the bulk of the factual data and instead, through the cunning use of selective editing techniques, portray the whole phenomenon as the work of pranksters and hoaxers such as Doug and Dave.

236 posted on 07/16/2002 9:04:45 PM PDT by FormerLurker
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To: Physicist
The point is that you must refute the speculation before you can make arguments about the probability of us being here.

That is a totally ridiculous statement. Just because someone makes up a hypothesis does not mean that one needs to refute it. It is the person making the hypothesis that needs to give the evidence. To call any speculation legitimate without any supporting evidence is making the delusions of the insane legitimate. It makes such statements as 'Martians exist, but the evidence has not been found', 'the dog ate my homework','the cow jumped over the moon' and almost any other insane proposition perfectly legitimate.

237 posted on 07/16/2002 9:05:10 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: Tolik; Physicist; RadioAstronomer; Frank_Discussion
Just a few centuries ago we did not know a small portion of what we know today. There indeed can be a litmus test for the young races to knock on the door of the Universal community, if any, to announce themselves. Similar to the warp-drive signature of the Star Trek Universe.

If it is true that there are vastly advanced intelligent aliens somewhere out there, I wonder what kind of test humanity must pass, or what kind of achievement humanity must make for the aliens to decide to go ahead and contact the human race?

Maybe they're not letting us find them because we are still considered by them to be too primitive.

238 posted on 07/16/2002 9:13:06 PM PDT by Momaw Nadon
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To: longshadow; VadeRetro
gore3000 exists, but the evidence has not been found...
239 posted on 07/16/2002 9:15:55 PM PDT by general_re
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To: Momaw Nadon
Maybe they're not letting us find them because we are still considered by them to be too primitive.

Only because they haven't heard the news that we've proven "Fermat's Last Theorem."

;-)

240 posted on 07/16/2002 9:17:25 PM PDT by longshadow
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