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To: scripter
Do the evolutionists have a better example of evolution than the apparent eohippus fraud?

Scripter, you're just candy for any creationist who wants to lie to you about what you want to believe. The "fraud" is far more apparent than real.

1,214 posted on 07/23/2002 8:30:38 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro
you're just candy for any creationist

I would imagine it comes across as bitter to your worldview.

Gore3000 said evolutionists can never point to a single species which has clearly transformed itself to another more complex one.

Virginia-American responded with: Ever hear of eohippus?

Do you agree? Is eohippus an example that fits gore3000's statement? Do you believe eohippus is the best or one of the best examples of evidence in support of evolution?

1,217 posted on 07/23/2002 9:38:09 AM PDT by scripter
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To: VadeRetro
Scripter, you're just candy for any creationist who wants to lie to you about what you want to believe. The "fraud" is far more apparent than real.

Another Vade brilliant refutation - a link to an article by a nobody in TalkOrigins who will tell any lie for evolution. Well, here are some people that disagree with him, some of the famous evolutionists in the field:

What informed scientists say about the horse series

  1. George Gaylord Simpson, world's foremost evolutionary paleontologist said, "The uniform, continuous transformation of Hyracotherium into Equus, so dear to the hearts of generations of textbook writers never happened in nature." (George G. Simpson, Life Of The Past, p.119)
  2. Simpson, after stating that nowhere in the world is there any trace of a fossil that would close the considerable gap between Hyracotherium ("Eohippus"), which evolutionists assume was the first horse, and its supposed ancestral order Condylarthra, goes on to say "This is true of all the thirty-two orders of mammals…The earliest and most primitive known members of every order already have the basic ordinal characters, and in no case is an approximately continuous sequence from one order to another known. In most cases the break is so sharp and the gap so large that the origin of the order is speculative and much disputed." (Tempo and Mode in Evolution, G. G. Simpson ,1944, p 105)
  3. This regular absence of transitional forms is not confined to mammals, but is an almost universal phenomenon, as has long been noted by paleontologists. It is true of almost all orders of all classes of animals, both vertibrate and invertibrate. A fortiori, it is also true of the classes, and of the major animal phylia,.. (Tempa and Mode in evolution, G. G. Simpson, 1944, p 107)
  4. "It is evolution that gives rhyme and reason to the story of the horse family as it exists today and as it existed in the past. Our own existence has the same rhyme and reason, and so has the existence of every other living organism. One of the main points of interest in the horse family is that it so clearly demonstrates this tremendously important fact." (Horses, G.G. Simpson, 1961, p. xxxiii)
  5. "When asked to provide evidence of long-term evolution, most scientists turn to the fossil record. Within this context, fossil horses are among the most frequently cited examples of evolution. The prominent Finnish paleontologist Bjorn Kurten wrote: 'One's mind inevitably turns to that inexhaustible textbook example, the horse sequence. This has been cited -- incorrectly more often than not -- as evidence for practically every evolutionary principle that has ever been coined.' This cautionary note notwithstanding, fossil horses do indeed provide compelling evidence in support of evolutionary theory." (The Fossil Record And Evolution: A Current Perspective, B. J. MacFadden Horses, Evol. Biol. ISBN: 22:131-158, 1988, p. 131)
  6. "...over the years fossil horses have been cited as a prime example of orthogenesis ["straight-line evolution"] ...it can no longer be considered a valid theory...we find that once a notion becomes part of accepted scientific knowledge, it is very difficult to modify or reject it" (Fossil Horses, Bruce MacFadden, FL Museum of Natural History & U. of FL, 1994, p.27 )
  7. "Well, we are now about 120 years after Darwin, and the knowledge of the fossil record has been greatly expanded ...ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transition than we had in Darwin's time. By this I mean that some of the classic cases of Darwinian change in the fossil record, such as the evolution of the horse in North America , have had to be discarded or modified as a result of more detailed information." (Dr. David Raup , Curator, Field Museum of Natural History, Chicago, "Conflicts Between Darwin and Paleontology", Field Museum of Natural History Bulletin, Vol. 50(1), 1979, p 25)
  8. "There have been an awful lot of stories, some more imaginative than others, about what the nature of that history [of life] really is. The most famous example, still on exhibit down-stairs, is the exhibit on horse evolution prepared perhaps fifty years ago. That has been presented as the literal truth in textbook after textbook. Now I think that that is lamentable, particularly when the people who propose those kinds of stories may themselves be aware of the speculative nature of some of that stuff." (Colin Patterson , Senior Paleontologist British Museum of Natural History, Harper's, p. 60, 1984.
  9. The sequence in the series which presents transitional forms between small, many-toed forms and large, one-toed forms, has absolutely no fossil record evidence. (Moore, John, N., and Harold S. Slusher, Eds., Biology: A Search for Order in Complexity, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1970, p. 548)
  10. "In the first place it is not clear that Hyracotherium was the ancestral horse. Thus Simpson (1945) states, ‘Matthew [1926] has shown and insisted that Hyracotherium (including Eohippus) is so primitive that it is not much more definitely equid than tapirid, rhinocerotid, etc., but it is customary to place it at the root of the equid group.’" ( Kerkut, G. A., Implications of Evolution, New York: Pergamon Press, 1960, p. 149)
  11. "In some ways it looks as if the pattern of horse evolution might be even as chaotic as that proposed by Osborn (1937, 1943) for the evolution of the Proboscidea, where "in almost no instance is any known form considered to be a descendant from any other known form; every subordinate grouping is assumed to have sprung, quite separately and usually without any known intermediate stage, from hypothetical common ancestors in the Early Eocene or Late Cretaceous' (Romer 1949)." (Kerkut , G. A., Implications of Evolution, New York: Pergamon Press, 1960, p. 149)
  12. "Much of this story [horse evolution] is incorrect …" ( Birdsell, J. B., Human Evolution, Chicago: Rand McNally College Pub. Co., 1975, p. 169)
  13. "Because its complications are usually ignored by biology textbooks, creationists have claimed the horse story is no longer valid. However, the main features of the story have in fact stood the test of time...." ( Futuyma, D.J. 1982. Science on Trial: The Case for Evolution, p 85)
  14. "All the morphological changes in the history of the Equidae can be accounted for by the neo-Darwinian theory of microevolution: genetic variation, natural selection, genetic drift, and speciation." ( Futuyma, D.J. 1986. Evolutionary Biology, p 409)
  15. "The fossil record [of horses] provides a lucid story of descent with change for nearly 50 million years, and we know much about the ancestors of modern horses." (Phylogeny of the family Equidae, R. L. Evander, 1989, p 125)
  16. Eohippus, presented as the ancestor of horse which has disappeared millions of years ago, resembles extraordinarily to an animal called Hyrax which still lives in Africa today. One of the evolution researchers, Hitchings comments as follows: "Eohippus, supposedly the first horse, doesn’t look in the least like one, and indeed, when first found was not classified as such. It is remarkably like the present-day Hyrax (or daman), both in its skeletal structure and the way of like that it is supposed to have lived… Eohippus, supposedly the earliest horse, and said by experts to be long extinct, and known to us only through fossils, may in fact be alive and well and not a horse at all a-shy, fox-sized animal called a daman that darts about in the African bush." (The Neck of the Giraffe?, Francis? Hitchings, [Title and first name are not certain])
Now when even eminent evolutionists do not say it is a horse, who you gonna believe?????
1,276 posted on 07/23/2002 7:02:28 PM PDT by gore3000
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