FR EXCLUSIVE: Gov. Jeb Bush answers the question -- "Do FL voucher students take state tests?"

Email from Gov Bush to summer | July 8, 2002 | Jeb Bush; summer

[summer]

Thanks, Gov. Bush.

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-----Original Message-----
From: Jeb Bush
To: [summer]
Date: Monday, July 08, 2002 2:45 PM
Subject: RE: quick question

Opportunity scholarship students must take the FCAT grades 3-10. The information on the test goes only to the parent and is not published. Private schools are not graded. The majority of students in private school are using the McKay scholarship. They don't have to take the test. The corporate tax credit students don't have to take the test either.

Jeb Bush

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-----Original Message-----
From: [summer]
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 2:18 PM
To: Jeb Bush
Subject: quick question

Vouchers and Government Control

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Gov. Bush,

A certain voucher question comes up repeatedly on FR.

I tried to answer it to the best of my knowledge on my post #40 on the thread above. Was I correct?

Briefly -- FR posters against vouchers keep claiming the FL voucher students are currently "required" to take all state assessments. But, I say, NO.

Who is correct?

Thanks,
[summer]

[summer]

Thanks, E.G.C.! :)

[summer]

OK, codder too, I have thought about the research you are waiting for, and I am wondering if the answer is this:

With respect to the disability students, when they leave the public school system and enter a private school, an IEP or something akin to it follows them into the private school.

MI_too and Principled, is that correct? (as I am not a special ed teacher) [codder too, the IEP is the student's individual academic plan.]

Consequently, there is something like an assessment -- but it is not a "state assessment."

[summer]

And, with respect to the other voucher group not taking state assessments -- the low income public school students who are not in a failing public school -- maybe this is the reason they do not get the state tests:

Their vouchers are paid for by a corporate tax credit -- not taxpayer money.

Now, there are people who oppose this voucher plan, because they claim: the corporation's tax dollars belong to the people, and, thus, by extension, this is in fact money owned by the tax payers.

While the other side of this argument goes something like this: Hey, corporations have long donated money to public school organizations, and that's all this is -- another donation.

Again, I am not certain I am right here, but, I think I may be correct or close to it. The sources of money are different, and the special ed students have a different assessment anyway.

[summer]

Where are the tax lawyers? See my post #43 if you think you have something useful to add here! :)

[summer]

But, now I think capecodder was right - the federal money will result in testing.

[summer]

And, I still think you were right, too -- a lot depends on how the different states deal with any federal voucher money. There may be testing required, but, FL avoided the other "strings" that could have been attached to private schools accepting vouchers.

[grania]

Summer: I am impressed!!!. I wonder what would happen if I tried that here in Massachusetts....sigh.

I have a healthy fear of the future, because (1) I know how adamant the state teacher's association is here not to let anyone rain on there parade, and how much control they have over the legislature and (2) As part of education "reform" in Massachusetts, charter schools were set up, and they ended up being alternative public schools, including having to take the tests.

And, where I'm coming from is a real dislike for the tests. The time, effort, and financing being put in them is taking away from higher end educational opportunities and innovative curriculum, for students accross the spectrum.

It seems as if your governor understands what concerns us. But, another concern...the laws don't change if good elected officials are replaced by people who will misuse everything.

[Amore]

Thanks for the ping, but I'm still confused (I didn't see the answer as I quickly browsed through this thread.) While most of the McKay scholarship students ARE in private school, as you & I have discussed before, the McKay program DOES allow for transfer to a different public school. Now, in those situations, do they take the FCAT? I bet they do because, along that line, there are officially diagnosed, learning disabled students (who have their OEP -- I forget what those initials exactly stand for) and who would probably qualify for the McKay program but are still in public school. I know for a fact OEP kids take the FCAT, but are their results treated differently? Not counted in the official counts? Or graded on a curve, so to speak? Thanks,

[Amore]

Oops, I see one answer now that I'm re-reading, it's IEP, not OEP. Knew that didn't sound quite right.

[summer]

I'll bet you're right - if they choose a different public schools, they take whatever assessments are required. I'm not a special ed teacher, so I can't recall exactly what they take, but, I do believe they take the state tests. (Sometimes with a longer testing time, etc.)

[summer]

I wonder what would happen if I tried that here in Massachusetts....sigh.

Hey! Try it and tell us! I once suggested every person on FR do this in his or her state, and we post the results here on FR. (FL's Gov. Bush will lead the way, I am sure!) And, thanks for your thoughtful post, grania. :)

[summer]

Re your post #49 - I always get that confused too! :)

[summer]

(2) As part of education "reform" in Massachusetts, charter schools were set up, and they ended up being alternative public schools, including having to take the tests.

And, where I'm coming from is a real dislike for the tests.

grania, As for MA charter schools and FL charter schools -- they are both taking state tests, as far as I know. Here in FL, Gov Bush does have an innovative 'charter school district' program, which frees up an entire school district from some regulations in exchange for higher student achievement, but, there too you have testing.

As for a dislike for the tests, I know there are parents in Westchester, NY who feel that way too -- but, I think the better schools have little reason to complain. Their students will do fine. It is not the big deal some people make it out to be. And, here in FL, the testing has enabled the state to identify the failing schools in need of help -- I think that's a good thing (as Martha would say!). :)

[for-q-clinton]

Personally I like the tests. Why do you dislike them?

The way I see it, it puts competition into the system. To be honest, I'd like to see private schools adopt a voluntary testing system this way I can choose to send my children to the school of my choose based on ALL the information available. If I think my son has a hankering for science, then I'd probably send him to the school that did very well on science. If he was good at arts and literature, I'd probably send him to a school that was at the top in that area. Without a standard test I can't tell which school is doing well. All I get is the fluff and BS marketing materials they put out. But after you send your child to a school it's too late to determine if that was the right school.

As people always say, the children are our most precious resource...yadda yadda yadda...well, if so I say test those that teach them so I as a parent can make an informed decision.

[summer]

so I as a parent can make an informed decision....

I think you hit on one reason the Dem gov candidates in this FL gov race are so low in the polls, even though voters are not yet convinced FL has achieved every goal in education.

Gov. Bush has put so much information online for parents about the schools. Never before has there been this kind of info for parents to study. And, I think most parents are not eager to see this info vanish -- which is what it seems like may happen if a Dem is elected governor, since they are always saying they are against everything Gov. Bush has done. Well, some people LIKE some of the things Gov. Bush has done, and providing the test scores online, etc., is one of the things he did.

As for private schools - it is truly a different ball game with respect to the kind of info available. That doesn't mean it is necessarily worse, but, it is different. And, for that reason, many private schools remain very choosey about who they allow in -- they would love to brag about your kid if he goes to some great university, but, they know there is may not be much to brag about to future potential customers if the student is currently doing drugs and has a criminal record. That kid is usually not allowed in, as such a student could ruin the reputation of the school. And, that costs money to repair.

[Amore]

IEP = Individual Education Plan.

And I agree summer, testing -- although a pain in many ways -- has helped us find the problems and start addressing them. The status quo certainly wasn't working.

[mafree]

Thanks for the info- GO JEB!!

[summer]

I agree. And, I never had any problem with the testing - that was the LEAST of my problems as a teacher. It depends on what you tell the students. I would say to my students:

"OK, raise your hand if you plan on driving a car someday!" (Every hand shot up)

"Now, raise your hand if you plan on driving a boat someday!" (Almost every hand stays up)

"OK, great, now raise your hand if you want to learn how to take required tests so you can drive your car, operate your boat, fly your plane, etc."

Well, Amore, every student's hand is waving wildly now - suddenly, every kid wants to become an expert test-taker! And, yeah, bring on that FL test! (We need the practice!)

I am serious! :)

[summer]

mafree, Thanks for the bump! Gee, if Gov. Bush only knew he had such a strong black female supporter in you, he might just tell you to come on down to FL -- and talk to some of these black FL voters! Let them find out from YOU why you are on EVERY thread I post about Gov. Bush!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

[mafree]

Well I said I'd come and stay with you so tell him I'll see if I can swing it.