U.S. quietly OKs fetal stem cell work - Bush allows funding despite federal limits on embryo use

Chicago Tribune ^ | July 7, 2002 | By Jeremy Manier

[Keyes For President]

The Bush administration has approved the first federally funded project using stem cells obtained from fetuses aborted up to eight weeks after conception, expanding the scientific promise of stem cell research and complicating the ethics debate that surrounds it.

[Tuor]

White House officials said Bush left the Clinton guidelines for fetal-derived cells in place because Congress passed a law in 1993 that made it illegal for presidents to ban funding for such research.

Was Bush aware of this when he made his little pledge? If so, it was disingenuous of him. If he didn't know about it at the time, why hasn't he made any attempts to get this law changed? It reminds me of the flap over the release of the report on Global Warming...

Why didn't Bush come out and tell the American public that such a law existed, once he found out about it? That, I think, is my main question about this.

Tuor

Give me liberty or give me death.

[marajade]

why hasn't he made any attempts to get this law changed?

Would his attempts succeed with a Dem controlled Senate?

[Askel5]

Would that I had the luxury of believing in myths and putting my faith in Personalities. I don't. It is in researching the Blood Trail, the marxist drug offensive, population control and watching what unfolded once the Pubbies set the Mad Bomber of Sudan loose in the Balkans that I have been forced to rethink a lot of longheld beliefs on my part. Facts got in the way.

Assuming they still exist, I've no doubt I can pull up threads where I'm yet defending many GOP ... including Bush and his Dad. In fact, I'd planned on voting for Bush (knowing as I did that Keyes didn't have a shot). That changed during the Potemkin pro-life legislation that was SB-30 and upon Bush's changing his tune on global warming upon "briefings by my advisors". (As of June 5, he made the critical admission -- where the Deep Ecology folks are concerned -- that humans are responsible for global warming. Talk about your "marxist propaganda". Very sad and truly alarming.)

In any case, let's not forget that it was a Republic Congress who confirmed Roe v. Wade (on a date "McKeating" was suitably absent). They've gone out of their way more than once to telegraph their true stand on human life. If you wish to stick your head in the sand and pretend that it's all Bill Clinton's or some idiot Dems' fault, that's your business.

I can't help but note that the Dems probably have the edge primarily to the fact that -- when they state they've got a "personal conviction" on a subject as critical as abortion or the Environment or some other artificial reality or Hate Crime -- they ALWAYS vote in accordance with same. As opposed to our guys who manage always to find some way to compromise the Objective Truth and give in to what they'd like you to believe are "political realities".

When it doesn't make me cry, it does make me laugh at how simple they know we are. No worries in declassifying documents such as NSSM-200, NSDM-314 (both of which put teeth in Kissinger's work on Carter's Global 2000). As Brzerzinki has noted, we "don't read" anyway.

____________________

If you've got some beef where LF is concerned, start a thread or post to the one Jim's put up already. I fail to see what your opinion of my posting at LF has to do with the question of fetal tissue as federally-funded research commodity.

You don't do Jim or this site any favors with wild-eyed statements that give the impression it wigs you to think that some who post here are somehow obligated to post only here or on Approved sites. I realize it's the fashion to paint LF as some sort of AF site simply because there is no censorship and there are a handful of wingnuts over there having trouble letting go the nipple over here or posting on something other than Israel (regardless the fact Israel is indeed at the epicenter of world affairs).

I think that shows a real lack of discerning, if not a preordained desire to "make it so", by concentrating solely on the disruptors and ignoring entirely the body of articles posted and discussion ensuing. Some good stuff over there, Dane, just as here.

Many of us who've been around here four years or more became faithful to this site as a place to get detailed research (from all manner of sources), unexpurgated opinion and the spectrum of sources as to factual detail about US policy, foreign affairs and assorted moral, historical and philosophical and even theological questions. I can attest that it's also been a lot of fun to realize I could participate in many events ... flying to DC or elsewhere to FReep or support the House Managers or attend FR's early rallies.

But popularity exacts a price. This place has been targeted for censorship by major media players (whose control of the media is only expanding, per the excerpt rule in force on this Chicago article and the deletion of Boston articles). Even more upsetting in a way, management must take steps to shield the ignorant from "marxist propaganda" lest its own reputation be impugned in the process. Given those realities and restrictions, it's only natural some will gravitate to a site that reminds us of the old FR.

It's a compliment to this place, Dane, that others are interested in emulating what they loved here at places like LF. Surely the world has room for more than one forum for intelligent discussion ... regardless the inevitable "moose and cheese" or the occasional food fight in the cafeteria.

Don't let the existence of LF grate on you so. Most of the folks over there, like me, are SICK TO THE DEATH of the bitching about FR ... particularly where it smacks of AF-style invective and hate (much less Obsession).

But, not only is it a free country where folks are entitled to speak their minds (however simple or foul) ... the site is specifically dedicated to little or no censorship and must roll with the punches and rely on self-policing. I admire that, actually, and look forward to watching how things take shape over there as a result.

And when LF gets too popular ... I'll probably see if I can't find another nook in which to hang out under the radar. Nothing would make me happier than looking back to see a string of highly successful places of which I'll always be fond for having learned from and met so many fine folks whose love of liberty inspired me not only to educate myself but do more than just talk about it.

I don't like to harp on the disagreements but rather -- taking a "never know what's working for you" approach -- am thankful for the way FR's ended up inspiring many to launch their own sites and attract new folks whose cup of tea may be LF or Liberty Post as opposed to FR but whose essential thirst remains the same for all.

[JMJ333]

That is a sad thing also..and rather Clintonian. A human is now not a human because it didn't happen by coupling. I know a few children who were conceived in a fertility clinic, and although I vehemently oppose fertility clinics I do not consider these children anything less than human beings with full intrinsic dignity. What do you call them?

The world is standing on its head.

[Satadru]

Thanks for clarifying. I thought fetal and embryonic stem-cell research fall under the same category. It is very strange that fetal research is already approved, but embryonic isn't? I thought an 8 week old embryo is called a fetus. If fetal research has been going on, then why not embryonic? How do they get the fetal cells though? If they get fetal cells from abortion, then why wasn't this a hot topic whenever the former Bush started it than now? I hope someone has the knowledge to clarify this whole thing for everyone.

[marajade]

I know a few children who were conceived in a fertility clinic

In a dish rather than in a womb?

[Clara Lou]

Tabitha Soren has posted that President Bush by now should have written an executive order banning abortion. I've seen numerous people explain to her that he can't do that. It just doesn't sink in that we have a constitutional division of powers.

[Askel5]

It shows exactly what we are becoming. Nazis.

I came across a fascinating passage last night in Keunnelt-Leddinn's "Liberalism". Had to do with a US report on the failures of the German family, schools etc. and specific measures to counteract these. Chilling, really.

I'll go dig it up and post it this evening perhaps. What's truly startling is how prescient are the prescriptions for fixing the Germans ... they are exactly the same as have been applied to us in the past 30 years or so.

Made me a little sick to my stomach, actually.

[Askel5]

This one got FAR more interesting than mine.

I should leave more leeway at the outset for "personal interpretation", perhaps, in my posts.

[Uncle Bill]

"(Anyone who watched former President Bush and Bob Dole stand up to preserve Clinton through impeachment (so the Mad Bomber of Sudan could hand them back a smoking Balkan baton) knows better.)"

White House killed human-cloning ban

Bush's Walk Doesn't Match His Talk on Life Issue

Even Newt couldn't find any evidence.

"As far back as April 7, 1998, then-House Speaker Newt Gingrich was asked on NBC’s Today if he were going to press for impeachment. His response: "No, we don’t have any evidence."
Source.

"I don’t care if you have proof that he raped a woman, stood up and shot her dead, you’re still not going to get 67 votes."

Bill Clinton The Rapist

It's good to have an experienced person as president.

"There is, unfortunately, also violence against women, which is a special violence, since women go through additional trauma of rape. Wherever there is organized violence against a particular community, women are always targeted for rape on top of everything else. Rape is especially horrible, as it not only leads to serious stigma, but also punishes the men and the entire community. Rape is a sign of being conquered and dominated."
Bill Clinton - April 2, 1998 REMARKS BY THE PRESIDENT IN DISCUSSION WITH HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS - Hotel Le Meridien President Dakar, Senegal 11:00 A.M. (L) - Source

Bang those drums baby

Judge Susan Webber Wright - "The Wall Street Journal has reported that Arkansas state judges are required, as part of their oath of office, to swear allegiance to the Democrat party. (I kid you not. See Whitewater, Vol 1, pg 101)"

Clinton Helped Shape 'Every Clause, Every Word and Every Comma' in deal With Rober Ray

Ray's office says: The deal spares the country the prospect of seeing Bill Clinton Put on trial

Mark R. Levin - "Ray Failed The Country"

ROBERT RAY

"A Bush administration insider has privately leaked word that a deal was struck between Democratic congressional leaders and the Bush White House not to prosecute Bill and/or Hillary Clinton on an array of charges related to the Pardongate scandal."

[Tuor]

Would his attempts succeed with a Dem controlled Senate?

Probably not, but if he was *seen* to be *trying* to get the laws changed, his consitutents would see he really cares about the issue and is trying to do something about it. The Dems would have to defend a very unsavory business, which would take their time and talking points which otherwise could be used for other purposes.

But, if Bush knows about this law and remains silent about it, only to use it as a justification when the cat comes out of the bag, so to speak, it doesn't make him *look* very good.

Now, I'm not one who is overly swayed based on appearance, but many, many people are. Bush would've gained points from even *trying* to walk the walk, and it would've more effectively shut up suspicious people like me who are wondering how committed he really is to this issue when he wont even use the bully pulpit to try to rectify it.

Tuor

Give me liberty or give me death.

[JMJ333]

Yes, in a dish mj, then implanted in the womb. They are exactly like us, and they do have a soul. To say they don't is heartless and turning a blind eye. I wish you'd reconsider.

[Dane]

Wow it took you an hour and a half to come up with a defense of the vile goings on over at LF.

Your losing your keystroke touch there Askel.

Anyway that does not matter, IMHO, since you always seek out forums where malcontents as yourself can spew your tin foil theories.

I will seek forums that are absent of rightwing/Libertarian/malcontnet tin foil and beleiving everything the NYT and WP publish as the gospel and stay with facts and reality.

[Clara Lou]

It's this way: A fetus has spent some time in a mother's body. Embryonic cells come from embryos that have never been implanted in a mother and have only been permitted to multiply to a certain number of cells, less than 200, in a petri dish. (Note: I in no way imply that it is any less human because it's only a few cells.)

[marajade]

" ... then implanted in the womb."

Does not the egg come from God and the sperm from God? Like I stated, in the womb... Hence there is no artifical life without God...

[dcwusmc]

Umm, maybe Jumping Jimmy knew there was no possible way Dubya would even try but maybe he knew that if he jumped, it would give Dubya cover to do what he wanted to do ANYWAY. Maybe if Dubya had BEEN a true conservative, JJ would have stayed... because it was the CONSERVATIVE/libertarian positions that got Reagan elected TWICE and got Newt and the so-called Conservative pubbies control of BOTH houses of Congress, not some psuedo-liberal, out-do the Dems, bs positions. If you're gonna be the same as the rats, why not elect a REAL Rat? And that's my last word for the day... I have real stuff to do!

[rb22982]

Well why doesn't Bush present a bill to congress to reverse the 1993 order. At least then it could be said he made an attempt at it

[JMJ333]

I'll look for the post, thanks.

Made me a little sick to my stomach, actually.

What gets me is the cold-blooded attitude. I guess I am naive because it shocks the hell out of me to hear people champion such death and evil.

[marajade]

If you did not perceive his policy speech as being out there in front then that is your perception; not mine.

[dcwusmc]

I will seek forums that are absent of rightwing/Libertarian/malcontnet tin foil and beleiving everything the NYT and WP publish as the gospel and stay with facts and reality

Bye, Dane, we'll miss your wit and wisdom here. (just KIDDDDDINGGGGG!)