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Arioch, the problem with your premise is that A) it is anecdotal and my own anecdotal experience can cancel yours out [I posted threads from professional body builders and Nutrition directors of national gyms who agree with me] and B) you are presuming that Atkins dieters should be body builders, which is a fallacy and C) you are placing the highly QUESTIONABLE knowledge of body builders over that of real experts, such as cardiologists, scientists, endocrinologists at some of the nations most prestigious universities and teaching hospitals.

Most Atkins dieters were formerly heavy to obese and there is no reason to think that they would become body builders so that is a bogus standard that you have set yourself. The success of a diet is not contingent upon how many people become body builders. I would also venture to guess that not many body builders have EVER BEEN OBESE in the first place so they would have no reason to try Atkins because they HAVE NO NEED to diet. So maybe you should ask yourself just how many of your body builder friends were OBESE in the past and in a position to NEED a diet?

Even so, we come back to my initial point that you keep ignoring. Body builders and professional athletes are NOT cardiologists, scientists, researchers, endocrinologists and have conducted NO RESEARCH on thier own. They are certainly much less qualified than that crowd. It defies logic to ask us to trust the judgement of some uneducated musclebound knucklehead - just because he is "fit" - over an array of some of the nation's most prestigious doctors, scientists, experts at some of the nations' top universities. Now c'mon, that just makes no sense and makes me think that you are grasping to support an insupportable view.

Further, I have produced several studies, on this very thread, that show that more dieters stick to low carb than low fat. The fact is that there are no long term studies that show success on a low fat diet. Most studies fail because the participants drop out at double the rate of the higher fat participants.

You are correct and I noted it. I am reading the Gary Tauber article on Frontpage. com right now.

It is compelling. I have never trained with very obese people, although I was one myself.

My diet has ALWAYS worked, until I see people that follow it fail, I can not be swayed. I guess this is bias but if it works... ?

I have only had three people take my advice and they did not fail.

You are right on the experts yet when I produced some you said they were "Biased," and you cant believe what you read. So, should I post studies again? I have read many of the studies you have posted and some are indeed compelling.

HAve you read mine?

I have always tried to be lean and have never considered bodybuilding (Mainly because I have a lame chest as far as that goes.), as I considered the carb depleting unhealthy during contest time.

I can understand why you are more vigilant in promoting your diet. Most of us do not agree with you and it works so you are upset.

My methods work for me and everone I have had the honor to work with. I do not consider them invalid.

As I said, you like your system, I like mine. I would call y system moderate fat intake so as I said to nov3, I dont think we are in disagreement, I have also said that form follows function and different athletes(As well as people!) need different things.

I dont eat or train like an endurance athlete and I dont eat or train like a bodybuilder. I try for strength and stamina in the martial arts.

I never run over three miles, but I run. I agree that there are differences and hey; I am speaking of my own experience.

Dont you know that there are plenty of studies that REFUTE your claims, just as yours refute mine?

I will do what has worked for me and you will use what works for me. What I tell to Atkins people in person is that I have been fit for fourteen years and they are not yet fit so should not pre-judge.

You have experience that differs, so be it. I have NEVER met an Atkins practioner that I considered healthy. Sorry, I did not and if YOU have then that is anecdotal.

I admit that maybe certain people benefit from it but not me or the people I train with. Again, good for you if it works.

I have never seen it work in practice. I dont mind being proven wrong.

Further, I have produced several studies, on this very thread, that show that more dieters stick to low carb than low fat.

I've noticed that if I have a moderate serving of beef or game meat (not real lean, but not real fatty either), plus a portion of lightly steamed vegetables such as broccoli or cabbage, at about 4:30 in the afternoon, I feel entirely satiated for the rest of the evening and then I can get on with other things instead of snacking on junk food until the late hours (which is where I'm sure most of my weight gain has been coming from...).

It works for me, and so far I have no temptation whatsoever to not stick with this routine.