Replies

Well done. Certain groups did use high-fat diets(And were very succesful I might add.) but I think the evolution to the standard hunter-gatherer model and the agriculural society is well founded. It is the model of modern society after all and I think we are much healthier then any humankind in the past. In general.

I do agree that we have reached a health care crisis in the past three decades and I can say that we agree that the refined carbs and processed sugars are VERY bad news.

I was never "Anti-Fat," as others of my ilk were. I do believe in moderation. I think fat is valuable. We all disagree on the ratios that these macro-nutrients should be consumed. Thats cool.

As I said, if the Atkins diet works for you, then you all have no reason to listen to me. My diet works for me, that I can say (As you.) that it works fine, so we will just have to agree to disagree with the specifics.

However, we do share some common ground in acknowledging that fats(Some in my case.) and high-protein are not a bad thing. As a weight-lifter, I have never gone through a low protein diet in my life.

One thing I do not like is the fact that most Atkins people seem to be crusaders. I said that if I ever (After 14 years.) ever lost my health and saw Atkins people performing better then I was, I might give it a try. I have not heard the same.

Dana gave me a decent response about people being different in thier needs and I agree with that. I have tried to be nice, I dont know if everyone thought I was, they seemed offended. I was called many things for viewing my opinion about my system which works for a lot of people.

It was trash, garbage, illogical, and other such things. I am a practical guy, I do what works. If your system worked for me, I would do it. It does not so I don't. I did not call your system anything; I just said I did not agree with it.

I also believe some of you told me I would get sick and ill and although I may have posted studies that decried your diet, I did not offer my opinion much as to the long term health of your diet.

I myself am doing fine and have been for fourteen years. If you all are healthy then I dont see anything wrong with that, do what you do to make you healthy but don't insult me because I am long establishd on my diet and just because it does not meet your criteria, I have been on it long term and have been very healthy.

Hey, I guess we all do what we know works, right? So have at it! It works for you all so go nuts.

I have not eaten a candy bar in twelve years. I have not had cake in the same so I can sort of emphasize with you guys and girls.

Just on a vanity note, I limited my diet from all salt and it was not pretty, salt is a neccesary electolyte and it is consumed way to much but after a couple weeks with none, I could not function.

Again, good luck all and we obviously can not agree, but I must say I am with the modernation posters.

Thats all. :D

One thing I do not like is the fact that most Atkins people seem to be crusaders.

I have found the opposite to be true. Look at Pardek, normally a sane level headed guy. His posts immediately went off the deep end. He obviously is proud of what he has achieved with his program and I laud that, but he immediately savaged Atkins.

I will say this, Atkins will be proved right. The nutrition world is moving toward a lower carb way of eating even emphasizing the proper fats. It is only a matter of time before they back off of the polyunsaturated fats band wagon and go entirely to recomending real fats that we naturally survived on. The myths of kidney failure, cannibalization of muscle, only water weight, inability to do long term, ketoacidosis etc. are coming out. The average person is getting the word. I run into people daily who are on Atkins/Protein Power/Sugar Busters and have seen life changing results. I myself have functioning kidneys, lost 30 pounds of "water" weight, have plenty of muscle (am still considered overweight by the charts but can't pinch an inch anywhere) and have not died of ketoacidosis like everyone a few years ago said I would. I have been in ketosis for literally months on end and feel better because of it.

I believe the salt thing is BS too. Unless you are totally hypertensive and hyperinsulemic salt is heathy and necessary. I eat tons of salt and my blood pressure is 110/70 to 105/65. Not bad for a sedentary 40 year old.

Unlike you, I have eaten cake - good Rum cake - about two or three times a year. It seems distastefully sweet now. I bought an ice cream maker to try to make decent sugar free high fat Ice Cream that isn't so sweet that it gives me a violent headache. (I can't stomach Nutrasweet or Sacharrin!) Decent Ice cream is about the only thing I really miss. There is very little decent ice cream available WITH OR WITHOUT sugar. Right now I am eating Peaches and heavy cream after a Steak and broccoli dinner. I don't feel like I am missing anything.

On a final note the Eades and Atkins are right about the epidemic of auto immune disorders. It is related to the onslaught of franken fats and insulin. I will bet the eicosanoid research of the next few years will further vindicate them.

I do wish that I had the drive to exercise like you! I admire it. I am just glad I can maintain relatively good health by staying away from sugars, starches, and franken fats. Have a good night, I enjoyed talking

Tim

>>I think the evolution to the standard hunter-gatherer model and the agriculural society is well founded. It is the model of modern society after all and I think we are much healthier then any humankind in the past. In general.

In terms of medicine, yes; however, in terms of diet, absolutely not!

The Egyptians, who had a very close to "perfect" diet in terms of the AMA recommendations of the past 20-30 years, are now found (via autopsy of their mummies) to have had significant atherosclerosis and obesity in their time.

In "Protein Power", Drs. Eades (who are also amateur archaeologists) recount the examination of the remains of hunter/gatherers and agricultural groups who, although separated by time, lived in the same area. Examination of the bones showed that the hunter/gatherers were healthier, having less disease and being better nourished (example: fewer dental caries, taller, significantly less evidence of disease damage). The only significant difference between the 2 groups was diet.

>>As I said, if the Atkins diet works for you, then you all have no reason to listen to me. My diet works for me, that I can say (As you.) that it works fine, so we will just have to agree to disagree with the specifics.

(shrug) each to his or her own. As long as you are healthy, and your bloodwork is normal, then what you are doing IS fine for you.

>>One thing I do not like is the fact that most Atkins people seem to be crusaders.

Low-carbers DO tend to be crusaders. IMO, it's a combination of 2 factors:

1) they've found this wonderful Way of Life (to distinguish it from "diet", which word has been badly abused), and want to share it with everyone; and

2) they've had to suffer the (usually) well-meaning but inaccurate and irritating comments about their "unhealthy" diet, and often develop an equally irritating "knee-jerk" reaction to what seems like criticism from having to defend their own lifestyle choices.

Nor do I think that bodybuilders in general are "knuckleheads", even though I would not choose to go that route myself. Some bodybuilders are very careless with their health, true (stacking and steroids come to mind); others are much more knowledgeable about their bodies than many nutritionists or doctors.

Arioch, you say that you have eliminated refined carbs/processed sugars -- for someone who does not need to lose weight, that is one of the basic premises of most low-carb proponents. Although the weight-loss regime is important for those of us who need it, that is NOT the be-all and end-all of a dietary regime!

Sadly, the book by Dr. Atkins that most clearly states this (SuperEnergy Diet) is out of print and needs updating to reflect more current research; however, the true "Atkins diet" comprises 4 themes, as follows:

1) the weight-loss regime, as expanded in New Diet Revolution;
2) the weight maintenance regime; basically, eliminate refined and processed carbs, and eat enough whole-food carbs to maintain optimal weight (also comprising the maintenance stage of the weight-loss regime);
3) the weight GAIN regime, where the person eats more whole-food carbs than on the maintenance regime; and
4) the regime that I call the "holding pattern", for
-- pregnant women
-- people who are ill
-- people who are about to undergo surgery
-- a few other instances I can't remember :(
where one would essentially eliminate the refined stuff and eat a "balanced" diet heavy in micronutrients and fibre.

Does that sound more reasonable to you?

I havent read the entire rest of the thread but thier are two things you said that are bothering me. 31 this bit about ancidotal (I know I clobbered the spelling)- first off there is a big difference between testimonial and ancidotal. This DID happen to me- it wasnt some little quip I pulled up to make everyone happy happy joy joy, all warm fuzzies inside. My discussion on how low carb diets work isnt an ancidote it is my life experience. Just becuase it doesnt match yours doesnt mean it isnt worthy of paying attention to.

#2"One thing I do not like is the fact that most Atkins people seem to be crusaders. I said that if I ever (After 14 years.) ever lost my health and saw Atkins people performing better then I was, I might give it a try. I have not heard the same."

Most people arent crusaders, they are just happy that something is working for them. I suspect the reason most people dont say they would jump on the bandwagon of what you believe is that most of us (well at least the several hundred lowcarbers I have spoken with) have already been there, bought the book and it did not work for us.

As for knowing people who have stayed healthy long term on low carb you just arent looking in the right places. I have several friends who have kept weight off for 5-10 years. Any diet is a full time thing, if you stop doing what is healthy for you, what is working for you of course your going to feel like dirt, get flabby and have less endurance. I am refering to everyday people not the incredibly miniscule population of profession body builders that keeps getting refered to as well. Most of us are pretty happy with more than 3% body fat... I will be happy when I hit the 16% I was at when I got out of basic training almost 10 yrs ago.