The March of the Porcelain Soldiers

Soldiers For The Truth ^ | Prior to 9/11 | David Hackworth

[CIBvet]

Sad to face, but who's really surprised at this report. Hope someone reads it who can make the required changes, but I fear the roots of the problem come from very deep within the psyche of our liberal, immoral society, and present-day recruits are a mere reflection of the cancer.

[nofriendofbills]

A must read and heed bump.

[Prodigal Son]

One thing about Hack is- he gets paid to be a pessimist. And what I mean by that is- nobody's going to pay him for an article that says "Things are Hunky Dory with Our Military!" Sure, there's much room for improvement but the American military is the most lethal thing on the face of the planet (outside of God and natural catastrophe). Our guys are getting the job done and they are faced with a task that Hack (Viet Nam or no) never had to face. When they fail let me know, but I think our guys are doing great and I send every last one of 'em a heartfelt Hoo-Ah! Keep up the good work!

[Jimmy Valentine's brother]

When I was in, everyone's second MOS was Rifleman. At the Battle of the Bulge, the band, cooks, everyone had to pick up a rifle. Of course not everyone is Ranger, Airborne or Delta material but basic is basic.

[Boonie Rat]

I remember the first day at Basic my SDI, Sgt. Mack, yelling "I'm your father and the LT is your mother, and we ARE NOT MARRIED"! "I don't want you in MY Army"! But I was rock hard and motivated when I left there! And I thanked him more than once while I was in Vietnam!!!

Boonie Rat

MACV SOCOM, PhuBai/Hue '65-'66

[ABG(anybody but Gore)]

I went through 11B training at Jackson back in the '80s. In those days, whenever the female recruits passed in formation, we were put at attention and about faced. We weren't even allowed to look at them, much less train with them.

[CIBvet]

Thanks for your positive reply. I too know more than a few active grunts, and I have been in almost daily contact around Fort Rich (AK Inf Post) for over a year, paying close attention to how they train and handle themselves. I feel good about their professionalism, but on the other hand, I work around today's public school kids alot, and I sure recognize societal attitudes, physical conditioning, and education have changed big-time in 40yrs.

And we're all aware of the Homo-feminization/PC of our entire society, to include military.

[WhiskeyPapa]

I think Hack is probably right on target. The Army is not in very good shape at all. The Marine Corps seems to resisting this sort of nonsense somewhat. One can only hope. But nothing is more ephemeral that military competence.

Now someone will post to defend the Marine Corps. It's a great outfit, but it's not perfect. If you doubt that, just think of one incident: Beirut, Lebanon, October 23, 1983.

Walt

[CIBvet]

I'm pinging a bunch of you vet-types, both active duty and retired. The discussion should be insightful.

[Prodigal Son]

Aye, I try to take an objective view. I saw a lot of problems while I was in, but I also saw the plus side as well. It's never going to be the "Old Army". It's just not. Viet Nam vets, World War II vets- they have to get used to that fact. It's a different world and a different generation. But they're ready and willing and able to fight our country's fight for us. They'll have their fair share of problems which will be analyzed ten ways to Sunday, but I guarantee they will not fail, they will not lose this war and in the end they will make us proud and keep us secure and free.

[CIBvet]

Just pingin' away to you vets. Be interested in your take on one of Hack's latest.

[CIBvet]

Ping, Ping, Pingin' away. Looking forward to your take.

[CIBvet]

Still pingin' and the birds are chirping. I gotta get to the rack soon.

[CIBvet]

The feedback we get from both active and retired vets will be enlightening. Thanks for your input and

HAPPY July 4th -- Declaration of Independence Day.

Thanks to the Founders for their vision, and to the vets gone by who secured those Blessings of Liberty for us all.

I need to get some sleep, so I'm putting the thread on Auto-Pilot. See y'all later

[Prodigal Son]

On what do you base this assessment? If the Marines are ready, the Army is ready as well. Anything a bunch of jarheads can do- the Army can do.

And anyway, what is the standard here? Are we saying our military isn't up to this job? Are we saying they will get defeated? Will they win? I think they will and when they do, please take a moment to thank them and admit that they were indeed up to the task.

Look, I like Hack and I like reading what he writes so as to have a balanced look at things, but just as I'm an optimist so is Hack a pessimist. Things will never be the way he figures the military ought to be or how it might've been a long time ago. Hack is stuck in perpetual "In my last unit" mode. If you served, you know what I mean. New guy shows up, fresh from a transfer from some other unit. I'm not talking about a raw recruit straight out of Benning, you know? I'm talking an E-4 to E-6 PCSing to Germany (or somewhere) from a Statesside post. You know before you talk to the guy that he is going to be telling you all about how "it was better at Carson" or Benning or Stewart or Bragg or Cambell.... Their last unit was always the sh!t, their last Platoon SGT was always the meanest, their last platoon was always the craziest. Never fails. This is a coping mechanism. Stressful coming to a new place, having to learn new rules, get to know new people. Having past stories is a way for the new guy to put himself in perspective. Some guys never adjust though. With them, it's always the "Old Army this and the Old Army that" "When I was in the Ranger Batt we did this and this and this..." This is Hackworth.

Here's my own "last unit" story. I had a First Seargent in my last unit. The only man I ever met in the Army that scared me. He was that perfect combination of smart, strong (physically) and psycopathic that makes a great soldier. Voice sounded like he gargled with gravel every morning and he could outrun/outPT anybody in the company. I saw him standing in the gas chamber with CS gas for hours without a gas mask and he looked like he was breathing a pleasant sea breeze. Any way, he lamented to us one day- "Men, I hate this battalion. We are so low speed it depresses me. I've been in some high speed f%^%ing units men and all we ever did was train. This unit is without a doubt the lowest speed unit in the Infantry and all we ever do is deploy". There's a lot to chew on in that statement.

[Lonesome in Massachussets]

My drill sergeant at Fort Jack used to say, "If you're looking for sympathy, you'll find it in the dictionary between shit and suicide." Now there was an effective communicator. Basic training in the Summer heat was an ordeal, but the modern version sounds like Hell.

[WhiskeyPapa]

On what do you base this assessment? If the Marines are ready, the Army is ready as well. Anything a bunch of jarheads can do- the Army can do.

I never was in the Army. I was in the Marine Corps. I didn't spend any time with soldiers.

However, I had a friend who had been an armor officer in Korea. He told me there was a big difference between young Marines and young soldiers. A Marine, he said, when you told him to do something, would say 'aye, aye Sir', and shove off. A soldier would immediately start asking questions. He told me once his battalion was having a briefing and one of his soldiers wandered over to ask the battalion commander when he could get a dental appointment. What kind of socialization would produce that? A young Marine would NEVER approach a lieutenant colonel for anything. He would know to go through his chain of command. That one incident says a lot to me about the two services. Marines are socialized differently than soldiers are. The Marine Corps has a lot of institutional values that they impart to new Marines. I don't think the Army does that. I don't think the Army even has values that are Army wide the way the Marine Corps does. "Every Marine a rifleman" would be an example of that.

Of course one part of that socialization is looking down on the Army and everything it does. :)

Walt

[Prodigal Son]

A young Marine would NEVER approach a lieutenant colonel for anything.

Nuff said. That's a point for the Army right there.

At any rate, you're basing your entire judgement of the Army, America's oldest institution BTW, on a second hand account from a buddy in Korea? Come on. I will give the Marines Corps their due always- they have earned it time and time again- and when I do get to heaven- if they let Infantry Soldiers in- I am quite certain the place will be guarded by Marines. But the Army would've captured and held that ground...

Seriously, the Army and the Marines are two totally different animals. You want to make a real comparison, we'll say that the Navy is the support mechanism for the Marines and then we'll lump swabbie stories in with Marine stories. The Army is a nation (and bigger than some). The Army has every job specialty from combat all the way down to support, nurses, typists, handwringers yadda, yadda, yadda. If the Army segregated its support animal (Navy in the Marines case) into a seperate branch of the service, the Army would then be in a similar class to the Marines and could be judged as such.

I'll illustrate with a joke- at your expense. There are four General Officers sitting around bragging about whose branch is the best- Air Force, Navy, Marines, Army. The AF General says "I'll prove it- Airman! Get over there and tackle that B-52 rolling down the runway".

The Airman does this, is promptly killed by the bomber's tires and the AF General says "you see, now that's courage".

The Admiral calls up a sailor and says "Swabbie, you jump into that shark infested water and swim around that aircraft carrier".

The sailor gets eaten by the sharks and the Admiral says "No, you see, that is what makes a good sailor".

The Marine General orders the nearest Jarhead to charge an enemy machine gun nest and the Jarhead shouts "Semper Fi" and gets shot to hell.

"Now, men, with all due respect- that's what it's all about."

The Army General scratches his chin and hollers at a soldier- "Soldier, you see that machine gun that just killed that Jarhead? You charge that thing right now and kill it!"

The soldier looks at the machine gun nest, looks at the fallen Marine and says "F$ck You Sir!"

The Army General laughs and sits back and says- "Now, Gentleman, THAT truly took balls!"

Also, on a side note- the Army song is much better than the Marine song.

[RonF]

I took a tour of the U.S.S. Constitution last year. The Navy enlisted man (a local by his accent) was giving us a tour of the gun deck. We noted that the cannon had arrowheads cast into them, with the point towards the muzzle. We asked him about them. He said that 1) they were a mark that the cannon had been legitimately purchased and were not stolen (don't ask me how that worked, I forget), and that:

"This way, if the Navy were killed and the Marines had to man the guns, they'd know which end to point at the enemy."

[SAMWolf]

Thanks for the ping.

Bump