Posted on 07/05/2002 5:10:33 AM PDT by CIBvet
And yet you show disrespect to the Marine Corps.
You even said that the Army song is better than the Marine song. We don't have a song, by the way, (in a sense), we have a hymn, the Marine's Hymn.
There's a difference right there.
I think there is not much controversy in saying that unit for unit, Marine infantry is better than Army infantry. Even George Patton is on record as saying, "bad infantry needs good artillery and our infantry needs all the artillery it can get."
It was true in Viet Nam that the Marines were more willing to use fire and maneuver on the NVA/VC when the Army would employ massive supporting arms and then mop up what was left.
I think, and I am glad to say that I am prejudiced, that Marine infantry is generally better than Army infantry. What is the mission of an Army infantry squad? The mission of the Marine rifle squad is "to locate, close with and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver and to repel his assaults by fire and close combat."
Most of the guys I served with, even the dimmest bulbs could give you that answer, because it was -stressed-.
I don't think it is stressed so much in the regular Army units. That is my impression.
But I will always take issue with the statement that the Army and the Marine Corps are the same. Yuck.
Walt
Did I say this? If I did, you have my sincere apology.
Here is what you said:
On what do you base this assessment? If the Marines are ready, the Army is ready as well. Anything a bunch of jarheads can do- the Army can do.
I respectfully disagree.
Walt
That's the same in the Army. That's why I reacted to the post in the first place. From my perspective, a Marine was taking one event and extropolating this onto the Army as a whole. My original assertions stand. If the Army got rid of all our support battalions and such that the Marines don't have, we'd be comparable. If you had the baggage units the Army has, you'd have some of these same problems. The way this is referred to in the Army is "combat unit or everything else" A combat unit isn't anything like an "everything else" unit. I wouldn't have a clue what it's like to serve alongside someone who was a woman or who didn't devote most of their training to fighting. Nor would I want to serve alongside such.
Had a buddy who at his promotion board was asked a question about the regulations regarding the length of a female soldier's skirt. He told the First Seargent that he didn't know and that he didn't give a flying f%ck. He aced the board! I would bet aside from this fear of talking to officers that you wouldn't notice that much difference between being in the Army or the Marines.
The biggest difference I've ever really noticed is you guys roll your sleeves differently. And we have a better song.
I cannot and do not share your optimism. Face it; if the dust-up in Afghanistan was dealt with entirely by regular U.S. Army units, they'd have their asses kicked. That's a fact. Cliche' or not, you fight like you train, and these twinkies face and will be facing extremely tough, battle-hardened natives in places like Ashcanistan.......and they'll (literally) get their soft little heads handed to 'em.
If the current leadership of the so-called Army can't grow a set and insist on actually training combat soldiers, then we need to dump their Clinton-administration-promoted-for-having-the-"right attitude" asses out of the military. Then, we need to get back to the basics.
The Army cannot hide behind the stunning successes of the Air Force and Naval Air Forces and their own Special Forces forever. THAT is exactly what they seem to be counting on.
Continental Army established June 14, 1775
Marine Corps establisted November 10, 1775
Declaration of Independence signed July 4, 1776
Continental Army disbanded November 2, 1783
United States Army established September 29, 1789
My friend had a pretty good tour with the Army. He had a commendation for having the best tank crew in the Second ID (as I recall the unit). Once we were doing something together --drinking large amounts of beer, as I recall -- and a news story came on and the background music was "The Cassions (sp) go rolling along." He perked up in the way I always do when I hear the Marine Corps hymn.
I am NOT showing disrespect for the Army. It just ain't the Marine Corps. And to suggest there is homogeneity between the two. I don't buy that at all.
Walt
Yeah, but the actual birthday of the United States Marine Corps is July 2, 1798.
Walt
That's not true. The article wasn't written to denigrate privates in basic training, or to bust on everyday Army personnel. He busts on the Army leadership, not the soldiers. When I say leadership, I don't mean company CO's or BN CO's, I mean the folks in the pentagon. He uses the actions of soldiers as examples. He busts on the Army leadership For being more worried about their careers and PC than about keeping their soldiers alive. He busts on them for lowering training standards and not taking war seriously.
Considering Hack was in the Army for more than twenty years and has more combat time than the whole JCS and staff combined, I tend to take his opinion seriously.
Well, we'll just have to call it a draw there because I agree with you. The Army aint the Marines.
Except for medical, dental and chaplain corps, the Marine Corps is self-supporting. We have our own chow-halls, admin offices, motor transports, logistic units, and the like. When a MEU or MEB or MEF deploys, it is self-supporting for 30 days, 60 days or indefinitely respectfully. The big difference with the Corps is attitude. We believe every Marine is a rifle man. Every last one of us. My Marine might drive a truck when he isn't engaging the enemy, but he is a Marine rifle man first and foremost.
Had a buddy who at his promotion board was asked a question about the regulations regarding the length of a female soldier's skirt. He told the First Sergeant that he didn't know and that he didn't give a flying f%ck. He aced the board!
True story. When I was a young LCpl I was on a meritorious promotion board for Cpl. I was asked if Marines were authorized to carry umbrellas during inclement weather while in uniform. I say no. The 1stSgt said I was wrong as woman Marines are authorized to carry umbrellas in uniform during inclement weather. I replied, "1stSgt, you said Marines, not women Marines." I was chewed out and kicked off the board, like I would have done to your buddy. Being a leader means you lead all not just the ones you want to. How can he lead a female soldier (cause as an NCO you are a leader not just a leader of males) if he doesn't give a flying f%ck about their regulations.
I enjoy inter service rivalry as well as the next guy and constantly harass our corpsman just for the hell of it, but I believe you are doing the army a disservice by suggesting that a PFC can casually ask a Bn Cmdr bs questions and you see nothing wrong with it or that a soldier can be unprofessional on a board and admit he only cares about a portion of the soldiers under his charge and that is a good thing.
You are correct in your statement about the Afgan theatre. We are relying almost entirely on the Rangers, Delta and SF. The 10th Mountain is also there, but from my understanding, they have not been doing very well. They are unacclimated and unfit and sucking wind BAD.
But the 10th Mountain boys are good soldiers and will square themselves away. Once again,
There is no such thing as a poor soldier, only poor leaders.
Ok, fair enough, and I have indicated that I think he makes a good point. But do you agree with him? Are we going to lose this war? And if we don't why wouldn't we have?
There is no way to train for combat. The best training for combat is combat itself. You can drill a man for a thousand hours, but until he's had the bullets coming at him- "He hasn't seen the elephant".
Our guys are getting good training right now in Afghansitan. They will apply this training elsewhere. They will learn in short order what it takes to survive combat and triumph. When they win, what will we say then? It was a fluke? These men are giving their all for us. I think we could hear more on a conservative forum for our boys than they're a bunch of cupcakes (or Twinkies?) and softheads. We WILL win this war and the next one and the one after that. And if China finds itself on the ugly end of our military, they will get smoked too- bet on it.
This reminds me of all the liberals talking about how terribly we're going to get whipped by Saddam. About how bad the Afghanis are going to whip us. BS! You don't fight the enemy's fight- you take your fight to him. Why should we put huge task forces on the ground in Afghanistan if SpecOps and AirForce can pulverize them with minimal casualties on our part? When we come across the war that dictates massive troop numbers and overwhelming ground force- that's what we'll do. I say, use whatever tactics beat the enemy- not fight the way the last guys tried it. We are a nation and military the likes of which have never been seen. Why should we fight by an outmoded doctine?
And you make it sound like I mean a soldier can just wander up to battalion and hang out with the Colonel. I think you know that I meant no such thing. But in the Army, you are in contact and commanded by your Lieutenant on a regular basis. He asks you questions and talks idly with you as a way to get to know you so that he can better command you. This doesn't mean you hang out together or go lay around the barracks at lunch time. But if I were walking along post for example, and was lost, if I saw a Major walking along I wouldn't think "oh sh!t! He's a MAJOR! I better not ask him". Rather I would salute him and say "Excuse me, Sir? I'm not from here- is the (2/15 battalion HQ for ex) down this way?" NOthing whatsoever wrong with a soldier asking a question like that. Now, granted, I gave a "time of day" question for example earlier. In all truth, if you were to ask a Seargent Major for the time of day he would probably send you on a survey to see what kind of watch every person in a 10 mile radius was wearing and you'd have to go see him later and tell him about it. But technically speaking- there is no rule that says you can't ask that question as long as you did it with the proper military bearing.
Also, I've had officers come up to me and ask my opinion on books and other things. If you develop a rapport with an officer on a particular subject why shouldn't you be able to speak to him in between things? What about classes? I've taken college classes with officers present- am I supposed to pretend he's not there or ask his permission before I answer the teacher or just treat him like a normal student as long as I don't disrespect him? These are all situations a soldier would run across in the course of his career and I just can't see your taboo about not speaking to the "Better People/Higher Ups" as being realistic. If it's like that in the Marines, fair enough, I won't be joining. But the Marines don't employ the basic tools of warfare any better than the Army. You give me a mortar and I'll go head to head with anybody you got because I'm just as good, just as deadly as any Marine.
Well, when the services parade together, who falls in on the right? The Army.
The 1775 recognized b-days are Army, 6/14, Navy 10/13, Marines 11/10 and the Air Force 9/1/1947 (?).
Walt
That's the same in the Army.
You suggested in the one post that it was okay for this dim bulb of an Army private to approach the Bn CO without consideration of the chain of command. So now you are changing your tune.
Walt
Another point about soldier on the board. He went on to have a good career and he never had to give a female soldier an order (except in PLDC where he was forced to serve alongside them in a teaching environment) and he said he would've quit had the infantry been opened to females. I believed him. I would have too. I signed up for a combat MOS for a reason. My GT score qualified me for everything and my DLAB score made me a good candidate for translator. I wouldn't having any of that. I would've went nuts if I had to serve alongside the wimps that Hack describes in this article. I still believe that Hack is harping on the worst case here and getting paid to do so and not pointing out the positive side of our military- which is- it kicks major booty.
And the Army Song is still better ;-)
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