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Constitutional Question for Legal Freepers
Free Republic | June 30, 2002 | The Raven

Posted on 06/30/2002 5:25:11 AM PDT by The Raven

Question is this:

Why not challenge the basis that schools are an arm of the government? It seems that each court takes for granted that the government (in the form of public schools) can't force kids to recite the pledge, pray, etc) - but these are local/State community based schools. What right does the court have in directing actions and behaviors? Teachers aren't Congressmen.

Or better yet, if the government is caught between a rock and a hard place --- why not challenge the Constitutionality of public schools period. A school receiving ANY instructions whatsoever from the Federal/State government - whether for or against religions, or text books touting the political agendas or fad of the moment - coupled with the States forcing children into schools - is collectivism, not individual freedom.

If Congress must interfere with freedom to worship in schools so that Congress is not forcing religion in the schools, it's a rock and a hard place - since "Congress shall make no law".....[either way]


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Free Republic; Government; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: churchstate; schoolchoice
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To: KC Burke
bump....
61 posted on 06/30/2002 2:15:13 PM PDT by rwfromkansas
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To: rwfromkansas
WHAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING ABOUT THE RULING:
62 posted on 06/30/2002 2:23:41 PM PDT by ATOMIC_PUNK
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To: Free the USA
Why not use the liberals court decisions against them?
63 posted on 06/30/2002 2:24:21 PM PDT by rwfromkansas
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To: Roscoe
Roscoe, - most of you religious fundmentalists & authoritarian socialists would be happy to see the power of central government used to impose a politicaly correct pro-God agenda on our local school systems.

-- Sorry, - it's just not constitutional.

64 posted on 06/30/2002 2:27:04 PM PDT by tpaine
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To: tpaine
I disagree.

But, I would be perfectly happy to see public education abolished and that would fix the issue anyway.
65 posted on 06/30/2002 2:28:46 PM PDT by rwfromkansas
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To: rwfromkansas
By acknowledging that the liberal court decisions are correct you allow that the Constitution is a living-breathing document that says what ever are leaders momentarily want to pretend. Read the current Chinese Constitution or the old Soviet Union's Constitution, they both grant all of the rights acknowledged by our own Constitution but because the interpretation was flexible and up to those in power their Constitutions provided no protection for individuals. I don't know about you but I want to live in a country where the limits placed on Government by the Constitution mean something.
66 posted on 06/30/2002 3:06:39 PM PDT by Free the USA
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To: Common Tator
Changing this nation involves 4 steps.

Your steps ignore the chicken-and-egg/hole-in-the-bucket aspect of this problem.

None of your steps can be implemented unless the public is re-educated on a very deep level, one that changes thier whole social-political philosophy. A philosophy that is seeded and reinforced by the schools and the tyranny-of-conformity aspect.

I believe that this link must be forcefully broken first, it must be a 'young persons' movement, opposite but simular to that of the 60's.

Secondly, the media must be transformed, especially television. An eradication through humiliation of PC thought followed by a resurrection of the principles of liberty and individual responsibility.

We must STOP wallowing in the low-class abandonment of dignity that pervades the popular culture I term as 'pig-worship'. The value-system must be re-inverted, the insistance on upholding decency must be disengaged from the slanderous depictions as fascism and religious tyranny.

People need to see they are being made into the subhuman, into rutting, mindless, careless unprincipled worms. Worms for the cold machine.

The young people sense this, but they cannot make sense of it. To them the world is in a contest to see who is most crass and vulgar, while at the same time all are contending for the righteousness to judge, the license to hate.

It is a war of 'in-your-face' an orgy of disruption, contention, hate and confusion.

It is the 'cutting-edge' of communism: balkinization through radicalization.

67 posted on 06/30/2002 3:18:22 PM PDT by mindprism.com
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To: Dogrobber
A Constitutional convention now would most likely result in the Liberals ramming through all of their pet "rights" and the removal of the 2nd Amendment.

That would start a civil war, without a doubt.

68 posted on 06/30/2002 3:23:27 PM PDT by Timesink
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To: mindprism.com
None of your steps can be implemented unless the public is re-educated on a very deep level, one that changes thier whole social-political philosophy.

You are assuming that people have to be educated to vote the way we want. Nothing could be further from the truth. The nation was very far to the right when the left took over.

In 1932 FDR ran on a reducing the federal budget, cuting taxes, paying down the natinal debt, and cutting the size of the federal government. That is how he got in office.

By 1938 FDR had the congress in his hip pocket and by 1940 he had the supreme court. He tried to pack it but failed. But as they right retired FDR replaces them with good leftists. Which then proceeded to rule as FDR wished.

Education had nothing to do with it and the issues upon which people voted had nothing to do with it.

The only thing new under the son is the history you don't know.

The Democrats got control of the media and the schools as a result of doing my four steps... not before.. Where the hell do you think I got the steps. It is how the Left did it.

You want to do it a%% backwards. Look at the media FDR faced. It was very very very anti Democrat. NBC and ABC were owned by solid Republicans as were over 3/4 of the newspapers in the USA. . Time Inc. was a huge media company. It is Time Warner today. It was owned back then by Henry Luce. Luce a rock ribbed Republican and trashed every demorat that ever lived. His wife Clare was a Republican Congressman. Get a friggin clue. Look at how conservative eduation was when the left took over. Nothing could have been more right wing than education in 1932.

That is what the left faced and they did what I suggested our side do.

You need to study the real world. Not your preconceived notions.

You do the four steps. THAT is how you get to control the media, and education.
69 posted on 06/30/2002 5:14:49 PM PDT by Common Tator
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To: max61
Why should local school systems be used as indoctrination centers for theological beliefs at all of any kind?. allowed to exercise their First Amendment rights?

Why should the Libertarians and Liberals be allowed to initiate force to violate those rights?

70 posted on 06/30/2002 9:59:53 PM PDT by Roscoe
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To: Roscoe
Why should local school systems be allowed to exercise their First Amendment rights?

Local school systems do not have rights. Rights are enjoyed by individuals, not systems. Why should Christian control freaks be allowed to use force to violate rights?. Please explain your point as to why any theologic system should be advocated by government.

---max

71 posted on 07/01/2002 6:26:16 AM PDT by max61
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To: Roscoe
Why should the Libertarians and Liberals be allowed to initiate force to violate those rights?




Why do you delude yourself that anyone is violating those rights?
72 posted on 07/01/2002 8:41:57 AM PDT by tpaine
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To: max61
Local school systems do not have rights.

Under a Libertarian hegemony, our historic American rights of local self-government would repressed by force. Fortunately for our country, the members of that anarchist cult lack the intelligence and competence to accomplish its loathsome goals.

73 posted on 07/01/2002 9:21:31 AM PDT by Roscoe
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To: Dogrobber
Very good post. You summed it up quite nicely.
74 posted on 07/01/2002 9:26:31 AM PDT by FreeTally
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To: tpaine
"According to information, the man who filed the legal suit in June did so against the wishes of his daughter and her mother, both of which identify themselves as Christians and attend a Calvary Chapel."

Libertarians are cheering the use of force to silence the children of the school. The stench of their actual agenda is made clear.

75 posted on 07/01/2002 9:28:01 AM PDT by Roscoe
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To: Roscoe
Roscoe says:

"Why should the Libertarians and Liberals be allowed to initiate force to violate those rights?"




Why do you delude yourself that anyone is violating those rights?
72 posted on 7/1/02 8:41 AM Pacific by tpaine
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To: tpaine
"According to information, the man who filed the legal suit in June did so against the wishes of his daughter and her mother, both of which identify themselves as Christians and attend a Calvary Chapel."

Libertarians are cheering the use of force to silence the children of the school. The stench of their actual agenda is made clear.
75 - roscoe




No, your claim above is delusional.
-- Libertarians support the constitutional separation of church & state, as outlined in the 1st amendment.
76 posted on 07/01/2002 11:08:55 AM PDT by tpaine
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To: tpaine
Libertarians support the constitutional separation of church & state, as outlined in the 1st amendment.

Misquoting and misrepresenting the First Amendment again?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Why should the Libertarians and Liberals be allowed to initiate force to violate those rights?"

77 posted on 07/01/2002 1:17:01 PM PDT by Roscoe
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To: Common Tator
In 1932 FDR ran on a reducing the federal budget, cuting taxes, paying down the natinal debt, and cutting the size of the federal government. That is how he got in office.

I suggest that in 70 years the parties have become sufficiently -- as Dick Morris puts it - 'calcified' -- bonded thoroughly to their 'super-constituencies' -- the unions [not the workers] and big business [not the American economy] for your proposed strategy to work.

A stealth candidate like you depict FDR is no longer a practical possibility. (the media will attack)

Also, part of what I am forced to assume if I concur with you is that democracy in its implementation is largely a snake oil pitch -- while this is true to a degree, it begs the question: 'who is at fault then?'

Who is failing to make the sale? The salesman. The party. And the voter apathy is simply the affirmation that we are 'full up' on the snake oil, thank you very much.

This is why I conclude that the circus must collapse, and people have to return to principle, but you want to go on selling 'black boxes'. Seems Bush has turned out to be quite a black box for many people on this forum.

Not a good way to maintain party loyalty.

78 posted on 07/01/2002 5:26:59 PM PDT by mindprism.com
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To: Roscoe
Libertarians are cheering the use of force to silence the children of the school. The stench of their actual agenda is made clear.
75 - roscoe




No, your claim above is delusional.

-- Libertarians support the constitutional separation of church & state, as outlined in the 1st amendment.

76 posted on 7/1/02 11:08 AM Pacific by tpaine




Misquoting and misrepresenting the First Amendment again?

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Why should the Libertarians and Liberals be allowed to initiate force to violate those rights?"
77 - roscoe




They aren't 'violating rights'. This is a figment of your delusionary imaginings, roscoe.

-- You even imagine I 'misquoted
the 1st. -- I didn't, - never have.

But do rave on, ---- please.
79 posted on 07/01/2002 8:01:36 PM PDT by tpaine
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To: tpaine
They aren't 'violating rights'.

No, they're just cheering on their leftist comrades as they silence the voluntary recitation of our nation's Pledge in our public schools. Their Marxist roots are showing.

80 posted on 07/02/2002 12:29:11 AM PDT by Roscoe
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