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To: hellinahandcart
Hmmm... you didn't tell me your positions on the homosexual and pro-abortion agendas taught in public schools. That must mean that you realize your positions are inconsistent. ;)

"I have yet to hear any of you explain how religion is established by two words "under God", or how the First Amendment was violated by its inclusion, I've merely heard your assertion that you believe both to be true."

OK, I'll try one more time: The First Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

Here's one of the definitions of "religion": "Recognition of God as object of worship" or "recognition on the part of man of a controlling superhuman power entitled to obedience, reverence, and worship." Look it up yourself in a dictionary.

When the American people are forced by taxation to pay for government-run schools and by truancy laws to send their children there, and then government representatives (called "public school teachers") lead those children in a pledge of allegiance to "a nation under God", the gov't is indeed establishing "a recognition of God as an object of worship" (i.e. religion), and it is indoctrinating children in that belief.

This is not about "fairness". I could care less about "fairness". It IS about constitutionality. The First Amendment is supposed to protect us from government intrusion on our religious beliefs. If one believes that there is no "God", but the gov't attempts to convince his child that there is a "God" and that our nation is beholden to this entity, then the gov't is indeed establishing religion (i.e. recognition of God as object of worship).

I can't make it any more clear. You don't have to like the Court's decision. (The judge has already caved in to mob rule). But you have to admit that the argument is a compelling one.

71 posted on 06/28/2002 9:24:57 AM PDT by Tired of Taxes
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To: Tired of Taxes
Hmmm... you didn't tell me your positions on the homosexual and pro-abortion agendas taught in public schools. That must mean that you realize your positions are inconsistent. ;)

Don't be tedious. You have no CLUE what my opinions on the above are (they would surprise you, but they are beside the point of this discussion). I just refused to let you change the subject.

The First Amendment is supposed to protect us from government intrusion on our religious beliefs.

Again with what it's "supposed to do" from the anti-pledge crowd. Here's what it "does" do--it restrains Congress on that matter, no one else. Just Congress.

When the American people are forced by taxation to pay for government-run schools and by truancy laws to send their children there, and then government representatives (called "public school teachers")

Classifying public school teachers as government representatives may be somewhat truthful but it still does not make them Congress. Do you see now why you're going to need that constitutional amendment I spoke of?

lead those children in a pledge of allegiance to "a nation under God", the gov't is indeed establishing "a recognition of God as an object of worship" (i.e. religion)

Again, nothing has been established. God was an object of worship long before there was ever a pledge. Recognition or acknowledgement is not establishment. And you can't establish what has already been established.

One more thing--you're not pledging allegiance to a nation under God, you're pledging allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the the republic for which it (the flag) stands. The rest of the words modify "republic". I know others who don't like the word "indivisible". My advice for those who don't like parts of the pledge is to slap a pair of mental parentheses around the modifiers--it's practically written that way anyway.

77 posted on 06/28/2002 1:02:35 PM PDT by hellinahandcart
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To: Tired of Taxes
I always respond to a challenge to "look it up myself" in the dictionary, by the way. Shall we play a guessing game? I will guess that your definition came from an edition of the New Webster's Dictionary published after 1991, am I correct?

I only mention it because I have a '91 and it's the crappiest dictionary I've ever owned. I figure it only got crappier after '91 if your definition is even shorter than this one--"Religion: Belief in supernatural power which governs universe; recognition of God as an object of worship; practical piety; any system of faith and worship."

The definitions aren't even well written; "belief in supernatural power which governs universe" sounds like Frankenstein or Mongo talking. That's because New Webster's has no relationship to Original Webster's or its successors. I won't settle on tht definition. Recognition of the fact that God is worshipped does not constitute religion. Worship constitutes religion.

Anyway, here's what dictionary.com yielded up for "religion"---

American Heritage:

1. a.Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b.A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2.The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3.A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4.A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Webster's Revised Unabridged:

1. The outward act or form by which men indicate their recognition of the existence of a god or of gods having power over their destiny, to whom obedience, service, and honor are due; the feeling or expression of human love, fear, or awe of some superhuman and overruling power, whether by profession of belief, by observance of rites and ceremonies, or by the conduct of life; a system of faith and worship; a manifestation of piety; as, ethical religions; monotheistic religions; natural religion; revealed religion; the religion of the Jews; the religion of idol worshipers.
2. Specifically, conformity in faith and life to the precepts inculcated in the Bible, respecting the conduct of life and duty toward God and man; the Christian faith and practice.
3. (R. C. Ch.) A monastic or religious order subject to a regulated mode of life; the religious state; as, to enter religion. --Trench.
4. Strictness of fidelity in conforming to any practice, as if it were an enjoined rule of conduct. [R.]

Wordnet: n 1: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality" [syn: faith, religious belief] 2: institution to express belief in a divine power; "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "a member of his own faith contradicted him" [syn: faith]

79 posted on 06/28/2002 1:21:28 PM PDT by hellinahandcart
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