Man who sued to stop pledge explains reasons for suit

SF Chronicle via AP ^ | 6/26/02 | STEFANIE FRITH

[I_Love_My_Husband]

Sacramento atheist Michael Newdow said Wednesday he was trying to restore the Pledge of Allegiance to its pre-1954 version because no one should be forced to worship a religion in which they don't believe.

But if the threatening messages on his answering machine are any indication, the American public is not thanking him.

[Dimensio]

So are you saying that because communism required a removal of god belief (so that the state could replace it as the object of worship, which IMO is actually a far worse foundation for a government than an imaginary deity -- for some deities) that anyone without god-belief is a communist?

[He Rides A White Horse]

Think tendencies. Not every non-believer is a communist, but every communist is Godless......and there is a reason for that.

[Dimensio]

I'm not so sure about that, I try not to make blanket assertions unless there is a very good reason to believe that it is true (ie, all humans have human DNA). Communism -- or rather what has been called communism but has actually been statism (not that I think that "true" communism would be much better) -- lends itself to removing or supressing religious beliefs because it practically requires religious-like devotion and dedication of its citizens to the state, which is to replace the "god" figure in the citizen's lives. However, just because it lends itself to not worshipping a deity does not mean that not worshipping a deity tends to lead to communism. That's like saying that because almost all white surpemacists are white, being white tends to lead to white supremacy.

[Mark17]

Sounds like someone has a bug up his nose.

It's actually the bird of paradise.

[He Rides A White Horse]

That's like saying that because almost all white surpemacists are white, being white tends to lead to white supremacy.

No it's not, because one doesn't choose to be white. One chooses to be a communist however.

[Dimensio]

Er, yes, and one can also choose to be a white supremecist. Still, for a better example, it's like arguing that because KKK members tend to profess a belief in Christ that belief in Christ lends to being a KKK member. Since I know that most self-professed Christians are not members of the KKK nor do they even share the same political philisophy of the KKK, I know that it is not the case.

You've got a logical fallacy in your analysis. You are saying that A->B, and then trying to derive from that B->A.

[MamaB]

I did not understand this when I first read it. What is he talking about? There is a lot more to all of this than just these words. When will the rest of the story be told? Enquiring minds want to know!!!! MamaB

[MamaB]

Morning SkyPilot, Who does this "me,me,me,me," mentality remind you of? You only have 1 guess!!!!! MamaB

[rwfromkansas]

I guess Madison was wrong when he introduced legislation to punish Sabbath breakers in Virginia.....which was kept after Va. started purging laws that it felt violated the First Amendment.

In the Thomas Jefferson Papers at the Library of Congress, the Kentucky Resolution includes this little interesting portion:

"3. Resolved, That it is true as a general principle, and is also expressly declared by one of the amendments to the Constitution,that "the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people"; and that no power over the freedom of religion, freedom of speech, or freedom of the press being delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, all lawful powers respecting the same did of right remain, and were reserved to the States or the people: that thus was manifested their determination to retain to themselves the right of judging how far the licentiousness of speech and of the press may be abridged without lessening their useful freedom, and how far those abuses which cannot be separated from their use should be tolerated, rather than the use be destroyed. And thus also they guarded against all abridgment by the United States of the freedom of religious opinions and exercises, and retained to themselves the right of protecting the same, as this State, by a law passed on the general demand of its citizens, had already protected them from all human restraint or interference. And that in addition to this general principle and express declaration, another and more special provision has been made by one of the amendments to the Constitution, which expressly declares that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press": thereby guarding in the same sentence, and under the same words, the freedom of religion, of speech, and of the press: insomuch, that whatever violates either, throws down the sanctuary which covers the others, and that libels, falsehood, and defamation, equally with heresy and false religion,are withheld from the cognizance of federal tribunals. That, therefore, the act of Congress of the United States, passed on the 14th day of July, 1798, intituled "An Act in addition to the act intituled An Act for the punishment of certain crimes against the United States," which does abridge the freedom of the press, is not law, but is altogether void, and of no force."

Letter to Samuel Miller:

"I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline or exercises. This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free exercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the States the powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise or to assume authority in any religious discipline has been delegated to the general government. It must then rest with the States."

Letter to Elbridge Gerry:

"I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another."

The Works of Thomas Jefferson---Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush:

"The successful experiment made under the prevalence of that delusion on the clause of the Constitution, which, while it secured the freedom of the press, covered also the the freedom of religion, had given to the clergy a very favorite hope of obtaining an establishment OF A PARTICULAR FORM OF CHRISTIANITY THRO' THE U.S.; and as every sect believes its own form is the true one, every one perhaps hoped for his own, but especially the Episcopalians and Congregationalists. The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes, and they believe that any portion of power confided in me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly."

(notice that this one indicates a view of the Establishment clause that is of a modern conservative, that it strictly refers to a legal establishment of a faith).

[SkyPilot]

Morning SkyPilot, Who does this "me,me,me,me," mentality remind you of? You only have 1 guess!!!!! MamaB

One guess? Well, OK...................................................................................



Here it is......................................................................................

From his farewell address:

"And I want you to know, that every decision I made, and every piece of legislation I signed, I did for the good or America. I always remembered that I was elected by you so serve, and I have served. As I reflect on the accomplishments of this administration, I know I leave this office with some sadness, but mostly I have warm memories, memories I will always cherish."

[MamaB]

You win the prize!! Whatever that is. You just ruined my afternoon with that picture!!!! UGH!!!!!!! MamaB

[He Rides A White Horse]

Venturing to guess where this leads, it would be that commies adopt atheism because it leaves them with the greatest latitude for rhetorical justification of volating, abolishing, and pissing on basic human morality.

No, what I am saying is that a somebody like a communist is somebody who violates, abolishes, and p****s on basic human morality. Something you'll find in many atheists. Why?............

......because there ultimately is no accountability. Those who don't believe in God for the most part see life as a 'take what I can get' proposition........they can murder, and if they can get away with it, they will. It doesn't matter, kill one, kill a million, if you can get away with it, it changes nothing to them. They make the perfect communist, the perfect totalitarian.

[He Rides A White Horse]

But the problem with this view is that atheism is not something commies adopt, strictly speaking. It is both essential to

......a killer or rapist likes to kill or rape, and they are the same personality type that, for example, displays low empathy for others. It's intrinsic.

[He Rides A White Horse]

bttt

[I_Love_My_Husband]

Update for those still reading this thread.

Mr. Newdow's daughter and the mother of the child are part of the Calgary Church and both believe in G-d. The plot thickens. I don't think they are bothered by the pledge or saying "under G-d" at all.

I read this this morning here at freep btw.

Does this mean the father committed perjury?