Posted on 06/24/2002 5:12:30 PM PDT by WakeUpChristian
U.S. investigating claims Sun layoffs favored foreign workers
Monday, June 24, 2002
Federal authorities are investigating claims that Sun Microsystems Inc. favored U.S.-based foreign workers over American citizens during a recent round of layoffs.
The Justice and Labor departments launched their probes after a complaint filed in April by Guy Santiglia, who lost his Sun engineering job in October along with 3,900 other employees.
Santiglia, 36, said the Unix server giant favored holders of H-1B visas because those engineers may be paid less. The visa program was expanded in 2000 to help fill the ranks of workers during the high-tech boom.
Now, Santiglia and others claim, the program allows companies to hire lower-paid and more pliable workers at the expense of U.S. citizens.
The federal agencies declined to confirm or deny the existence of an investigation. Sun confirmed it has been asked for documents related to Santiglia's claims and is cooperating.
In an e-mail, Sun spokeswoman Diane Carlini said the layoffs "were driven by business needs going forward, employee skill and performance. Foreign national status was not a factor in the selection."
Santiglia, who has a degree in electrical engineering from Montana State University, said he knows of at least three other laid-off Sun employees who have similar claims.
"There's people complaining from all over Sun, from New Hampshire to Colorado, that the H-1Bs did not get laid off from their groups," he said.
The Justice Department usually investigates complaints about the H-1B visa program as it relates to a law that bars discrimination on the basis of citizenship status.
The Labor Department, however, says it has no rules about favoring U.S. citizens during layoffs.
"There's nothing that says that when they get to a point where they need to downsize that H-1Bs go first," a labor official, who asked not to be identified, told the San Jose Mercury News.
On the Net:
Sun Microsystems: www.sun.com
No, actually I have a hard time reading something that doesn't exist. You've made several allegations, but offered no proof.
1. H1B's pay normal taxes, just like every other worker in the US, contrary to what Zazona claims.
See the FAQ at http://www.zazona.com/ShameH1B/H1BFAQs.htm. I emailed Rob Sanchez, author of the Shame H1B site nearly 12 months ago and he admitted he didn't know what he was talking about, yet he hasn't modified that information which implies H1B's don't pay social security tax (Quote "Many of the H-1Bs that qualify for totalization will work for 6 years without contributing to the SS system and then get their green cards.")
You've taken the author's text WAY out of context. What the author actually wrote doesn't say that H1-Bs don't pay any FICA. He was speaking of a proposed "totalization" agreement, as defined in this document, U.S. INTERNATIONAL SOCIAL SECURITY AGREEMENTS
An excerpt from this document provides the following information.
The aim of all U.S. totalization agreements is to eliminate dual Social Security coverage and taxation while maintaining the coverage of as many workers as possible under the system of the country where they are likely to have the greatest attachment, both while working and after retirement. Each agreement seeks to achieve this goal through a set of objective rules.
A general misconception about U.S. agreements is that they allow dually covered workers or their employers to elect the system to which they will contribute. This is not the case. The agreements, moreover, do not change the basic coverage provisions of the participating countries' Social Security laws--such as those that define covered earnings or work. They simply exempt workers from coverage under the system of one country or the other when their work would otherwise be covered under both systems.
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The Social Security Law says the following: Unless specifically exempt by law, all earnings from employment in the United States--including earnings of citizens of other countries -- are covered under Social Security and are subject to Social Security taxes. These taxes must be paid even though the taxpayer does not expect to derive any benefit from them." Normally, a person cannot withdraw his or her Social Security taxes, even when no benefits are payable. The Social Security taxes paid on a worker's earnings are not placed in an individual worker's account but are pooled in special funds from which benefits are paid to eligible workers and their families." |
That statement sounds very ironclad doesn't it? Reread the first sentence that says "unless specifically exempt". That's a huge, gaping loophole and unfortunately H-1B is riddled with them. Regulations are always made to the advantage of the H-1B or the employer, never the American worker.
FICA is handled differently according to the type of nonimmigrant visa issued. The J-1 visa is exempt from FICA withholdings.
The US has Totalization Agreements with about 17 different countries, under which foreign workers may have their Social Security deductions sent to their home country program (rather than the US SSA) and vice versa. [6]
The entire text can be found at Do Non-Immigrant Workers Pay FICA?
In fact, upon reading the paragraph following the one that you presented, the author states..
"If the migrants were admitted permanently, their payments would go into our SS system, and of course they would become eligible to claim them later in life. But our current immigration strategy is to rely as heavily as possible on temporary migrants, who (although usually required to) have no interest in supporting our SS program. Many, like the Indians, are lobbying for totalization agreements for this very reason-why should they pay such a huge chunk of their income into our system if they'll be sent home after 6 years, and won't have quarters enough to reclaim their deposits?"
I'd say if you really DID contact the author, he more than likely told you to buzz off as you were probably just sending him meaningless drivel just to annoy him.
2. Zazona's hysterical claims of H1B being a possible way for terrorists to get in the country is just that. There are plenty of simpler, cheaper ways for terrorists to get into the country.
Discussed at http://www.zazona.com/ShameH1B/H1BNews.htm, specifically "It is a well know fact that the H-1B visa is an ideal way for terrorists or spies to gain access to mission critical computers.". Of course, he doesn't give any examples of how it is more ideal than, say, a tourist passport which is cheaper, quicker and doesn't require a degree in computer science, a sponsoring company or an attorney.
You can't be serious. Foreign nationals are working at most US Universities on DOD/DOE projects. They work at weapons laboratories such as Sandia, Lawrence Livermore, Los Alamos, etc.. They work at Boeing, Lockheed, and many other companies with sensitive projects. To say a tourist would have the access afforded by actually working where classified data is generated, processed, and used is unrealistic at best
. I don't have the time to go proofreading his whole site for him, but the initial quality of information appears extremely poor based on my quick reading of it.
Seems like you have a problem with reading comprehension. You should try to read a little slower, you might see something you missed.
In any instance, you have not presented ANY proof of your allegations, just an out of context quote and a opinion of yours that is quite erroneous.
The author has presented references to government publications to back up his statements. Why don't you try to do the same.
In fact, if you would like even MORE facts and statistics on the matter, why don't you take a peek at Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage , of which I've already posted on this thread in post #75.
In fact, if you want to debate facts and statistics, why don't you point out where there Dr. Matloff has erred in the following report, since you proclaim to know more than the people performing the studies..
In fact, if you want to debate facts and statistics, why don't you point out where there Dr. Matloff has erred in the following report, since you proclaim to know more than the people performing the studies..
Check out post #68...
The issue is there was no shortage. The problem was, company CEOs and executives were trying to rig the supply & demand game by lobbying congress for cheap immigrant labor. There was no shortage of skilled American labor - the problem was, the labor available was not cheap enough to suit the CEOs and fund their life of luxury.
What makes you think there was a shortage?
You know if you read post #68 you'd find that isn't true.
Sellouts? What exactly have they sold out? Do you think that they went into business to provide YOU with a job? Do they owe you a job? Is it your RIGHT to demand a job with them?
Or, are you overpricing your skills and hoping for a government intervention to insulate you from having to compete? That is the kind of protectionism that destroys US industry. That is the kind of crap that communist labor unions advocate. It is the LAST thing we need in the tech industry.
Frankly, any company that didn't hire the best people for the lowest wage would be the sellouts. Well, at least that's the way people who believe in liberty, the free market and individual rights see it.
Guess again, if you think H1-B's are a major factor in cheaper computer products. The far more significant factor is intellectual leverage from increasingly advanced tools and technologies, leading to large productivity gains--NOT direct labor cost savings. If you're in the PhD program at the U Chicago Graduate School of Business, you should understand this.
Start with post #68 above. There is no labor shortage, only a labor shortage at the desired lower wage. What they have sold out is quite valuable--among other things, goodwill with their fellow citizens. What goes around comes around though, because the trend among the most talented designers (the semiconductor industry comes to mind) is toward smaller U.S. based intellectual property shops organized along the lines of a legal or medical professional group, who establish relationships with multiple fabs, within and without the U.S. It's a win-win, because the offshore fab has fewer layers of American management to compensate, and the design group that does the 90 hour weeks and sweats blood is properly compensated for its skill. Sounds fair to me.
Do you think that they went into business to provide YOU with a job? Do they owe you a job? Is it your RIGHT to demand a job with them?
Hell no, and I don't want to work for them. And don't.
Or, are you overpricing your skills and hoping for a government intervention to insulate you from having to compete?
No, and we don't sell skills. We license intellectual property. It's nice, because it cuts out the middleman, and the skills are implicit.
That is the kind of protectionism that destroys US industry.
The part that hasn't moved to Malaysia, Singapore, Korea, Taiwan, or China.
Frankly, any company that didn't hire the best people for the lowest wage would be the sellouts. Well, at least that's the way people who believe in liberty, the free market and individual rights see it.
Thomas Jefferson said "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never has and never will be." In flattery by imitation, I say "If a firm expects to hire the best people for the lowest wage, in a state of competition, it expects what never has and never will be."
Fortunately, the market will decide who's best, and when it isn't the firm that pays the lowest wage, that will expose them as sellouts. Q.E.D.
I'm not aware of any union for programmers.
There is a effort to set standareds for System Administrators, not unionize, just clarify levels of competence.
Read post #68. There NEVER was a shortage. The H1B program is simply a globalization program being used to displace American workers, and eliminate highly talented workers from the marketplace.
It pretty much guarantees that American engineers past the age of 40 will have to find another career, not an easy thing to do....
I can't see how that would be good for our Nation, nor how it could be good for business.
I am not sure when is the last time you shopped for computer products, but I can guarantee that the price of all computer peripherals have gone down over the years. It is hard to gauge the price of a software because I don't think no two softwares are the same. You are paying for new bells and whistles in different versions. Having said that, I am sure whatever software you are looking for, you can find it for free from Shareware or somewhere else. The actual coding part has become so cheap that companies will let you try out their product for free. You cannot say that for cars or health care.
On the topic of health care, you are dead wrong. Lower govt control is not the problem. The FDA and other govt agencies has a stranglehold on insurance companies and hospitals. They are the ones who keeps cost and wages high, so that average folks cannot afford them. It is a setup job so they can say that private care is not working, and we should go into socialized health care. I am glad that the computer industry is not following the same foot steps of unionization and price controls. It is the most free marketplace, and look there is a computer in every household, or anyone who wants one has one.
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