U.S. investigating claims Sun layoffs favored foreign workers (H-1B visas )

AP ^ | Monday, June 24, 2002 | AP

[FormerLurker]

Lets just put an end to this. You will not convince me, and vice versa. I have to stay competitive in what I do, otherwise a Chinese grad student would beat me to my bread.

As I very much already suspected, you are talking out of your butthole.

[FormerLurker]

You're=your. Also, software is a common noun. Hence, it is perfectly fine to put an article in front of it.

Sorry genius, but I called you on the fact that you made the word plural. If you want to prove me wrong, just go ahead...

[Satadru]

My butthole probably has more gray matters than you have in your lobes. Otherwise, you wouldn't be advocating socialistic control over our economy.

[FormerLurker]

My butthole probably has more gray matters than you have in your lobes.

Yeah, you have gray "matters" in your butthole ok, from that alien probe you experienced just today. Sorry, but you are quite mistaken. Asking a 3rd time for your answer on encryption logic gates and a 3rd time for your answer on constructors. A BIG hint: data is encrypted/decrypted utilizing a XOR gate. Now, what gate is used for key encryption. Another BIG hint: NONE OF THIS IS CLASSIFIED.

And yes, I seriously do agree that if you do have any grey 'matters' in your butthole, that is where ALL of yours are.

Otherwise, you wouldn't be advocating socialistic control over our economy.

You are the one advocating corporate welfare, in addition to condoning child abuse, totalarian tactics, and federal crimes involving fraud.

[FormerLurker]

Oops, another typo. I should have said...

You are the one advocating corporate welfare, in addition to condoning child abuse, totalarian totalitarian tactics, and federal crimes involving fraud.

[FormerLurker]

Obviously, this post was meant for you.

You are the one advocating corporate welfare, in addition to condoning child abuse, totalarian totalitarian tactics, and federal crimes involving fraud.

[Satadru]

I am not the one advocating socialist control over our labor force. You are. I am not the one who thinks the US should no longer have a capitalist system. You do.

BTW, I studied math in college, not CS. I could tell you a lot about information theory, like cyclic codes, mobius inversion, BCH codes, but you probably wouldn't understand. If I feel like, I can pick up the programming aspect of it any minute.

Go take some basic economics courses, and then we can renew the conversation.

[FormerLurker]

I am not the one advocating socialist control over our labor force. You are. I am not the one who thinks the US should no longer have a capitalist system. You do.

Your declarations of support for policies advocated by Marxist governments who are totalitarian in nature astounded me. I only advocate following the law, which has been blatently violated for the most obscene of reasons, that being sheer short sighted greed.

BTW, I studied math in college, not CS. I could tell you a lot about information theory, like cyclic codes, mobius inversion, BCH codes, but you probably wouldn't understand. If I feel like, I can pick up the programming aspect of it any minute.

Well Satadru, you claimed to have been an ole Java expert yet couldn't even describe a Java constructor. You claim to know encryption, yet you fail to answer a basic question as to how it would be applied in ANY programming language.

Ok, you claim to know math. Why don't you fill me in a little on natural logs, and more specifically, what the symbol e is all about. Not that I don't believe you, it's just that I'm really interested to find out about natural logs, especially as they relate to integrals.

Go take some basic economics courses, and then we can renew the conversation.

Sorry, I have more important things to do.

[Satadru]

Why don't you fill me in a little on natural logs, and more specifically, what the symbol e is all about. Not that I don't believe you, it's just that I'm really interested to find out about natural logs, especially as they relate to integrals.

ln and exp are inverses. exp is a mapping from R->R+ and ln is a mapping from R+->R. If you integrate exp(x), you get exp(x). Same for derivates. The derivative of ln(x) is 1/x and the integral of ln(x) is x*ln(x)-1. Why dont you prove it by integration by parts?

Why dont you answer one question, since you are the encryption expert? Prove that a q-ary cyclic code of length n is invariant under the permutation pi for which pi(i)=qi mod n. I know you wouldn't be able to do it because it is a hard problem. The reason I ask you is because when you study information theory theoretically, you do not necessarily learn about logic gates and the programming aspect of it, you learn it mathematically. I did, you didn't.

By the way, if you find my ideas of freedom of contracts and capitalism to be Maoist, then I think you should figure out what side of the ideological debate you want to be. I stand in line with Smith, Ricardo, Hamilton and Locke, while you stand there with Karl Marx.

Have your last word, but don't forget to prove what I asked.

[Satadru]

I meant the integral of ln(x) is x*ln(x)-x. Again, prove it?

[steve-b]

To say nothing of the additional costs associated with providing assitance to H1-B's and their families, such as offering private cultural or religious schooling for their children should they so desire.

What pikers. H1-Bs should be able to require a couple of scantily clad "assistants" of their preferred gender(s) fan them with those big palm things for the duration of the work day.

Now that would be expensive enough to insure that they're hired only when the management is really, truly, honestly, unable to hire an American citizen for the job.

[tsomer]

"What you are saying is the price of labor will be artificially fixed higher by government regulations so US workers can drive their SUVs and live a happy suburban life. "

I believe you have the equation backwards. This situation is more akin to the government releasing bullion in an attempt to control gold futures.

Now this sort of thing works for awhile. And there may be no, or mild repurcussions. But sometimes things swing beyond influence. This may be such a time. My argument is that the cost of these workers is higher than it first appeared.

[Satadru]

Fine. If the cost is higher such that it is not optimal for companies to hire them, then the companies won't. Bottom line is in everybody's mind. If the costs of hiring a foreigner is higher than hiring a native, then the marketplace will reorganize itself. I am not advocating for foreign workers. I am advocating for whatever is optimal economic policy. If govt clamps down on cheap foreign labor, that is not optimal economic policy. It is more akin to socialism.

[FormerLurker]

The derivative of ln(x) is 1/x and the integral of ln(x) is x*ln(x)-1. Why dont you prove it by integration by parts?

What I was sort of looking for was that e is the base of natural logrithms, where ln(x) = log_e(x).. It is usually defined by the following equation:

e = lim_n->infinity (1 + 1/n)ⁿ.

An effective way to calculate the value of e is to use the following infinite sum:

e = 1/0! + 1/1! + 1/2! + 1/3! + 1/4! + ...

What I had in mind concerning the integral question was that 1/x dx = ln|x| + C, but you did provide another equality neat property by describing e^x dx = e^x + C  .

Ok, so you know a few properties related to natural logs, although you didn't quite describe the integral of ln(x) correctly. The integral of ln(x) = x * ln(x) - x + C. Since you'd like to see a proof by integration by parts, I'll provide that below..

Proof of ln(x) dx = x ln(x) - x + C.

1. Proof

Strategy: Use Integration by Parts.

ln(x) dx

set
  u = ln(x),    dv = dx
then we find
  du = (1/x) dx,    v = x

substitute

ln(x) dx =  u dv

and use integration by parts

= uv -  v du

substitute u=ln(x), v=x, and du=(1/x)dx

= ln(x) x -  x (1/x) dx
= ln(x) x -  dx
= ln(x) x - x + C
= x ln(x) - x + C.
Q.E.D.

Why dont you answer one question, since you are the encryption expert? Prove that a q-ary cyclic code of length n is invariant under the permutation pi for which pi(i)=qi mod n.

Ok, you've stumped me on that one. Can you solve it?

I know you wouldn't be able to do it because it is a hard problem. The reason I ask you is because when you study information theory theoretically, you do not necessarily learn about logic gates and the programming aspect of it, you learn it mathematically. I did, you didn't.

Solve it then I'll believe you. What brought this on was your assertion that you used to be a Java programmer, yet you couldn't tell me what a constructor was. You've claimed most engineering positions filled by H1Bs could be performed by a monkey, but you couldn't answer a basic question as to how you'd APPLY a encryption algorithm to encrypt/decrypt data. That is what got us here. Maybe you really ARE a mathmatician and you work on q-ary cyclic codes for encryption. Just don't underestimate the intelligence of us 'monkeys'.

By the way, if you find my ideas of freedom of contracts and capitalism to be Maoist, then I think you should figure out what side of the ideological debate you want to be. I stand in line with Smith, Ricardo, Hamilton and Locke, while you stand there with Karl Marx.

You stood behind those that promote indentured servitude, you've condoned forced child labor in China along with outright slave labor, and you see nothing wrong with policies that promote fraud in order to fix a problem that doesn't exist.

Something tells me Marx would be your ally, not mine.

[captain11]

I know the difference between softwares and hardwares. I was a JAVA programmer for a while before I got bored out of my mind.

I'll bet you were a real stud. Got bored after writing two or three "Hello, Sweatshop!" applets, no doubt. Ever work on a commercially important, multi-tier line-of-business system using J2EE. Ever work on a system with thirty other developers, sophisticated revision and build control, with fast iterative development, well-defined interfaces, and a thoughtful, modular design. I'll bet you're all over the new J2SE 1.4 regular expression, logging, assertion, JAXP and IO features, and can write bug-free multi-threaded server code in your sleep.

BTW, in the vernacular, most of us who can do it for a living refer to it as hardware and software. Kind of like deer--no "s". Also, those who do it for real spell it "Java". It isn't an acronym.

Now excuse me; I have to download the latest NORAD class satellite tracking system from Shareware.com. The previous version was a little weak in the Kalman filter libraries, but this new version is sure to rock.

[FormerLurker]

I'll bet you were a real stud.

I can just picture him whipping up some of his "softwares"...

Also, those who do it for real spell it "Java". It isn't an acronym.

He's still trying to find somebody to answer my question on what a constructor is I think.

Now excuse me; I have to download the latest NORAD class satellite tracking system from Shareware.com.

Maybe we should ask our friend if he's uploaded his latest encryption algorithms on Mathware(s).com yet, I'd like to check it out myself.

[captain11]

Maybe we should ask our friend if he's uploaded his latest encryption algorithms on Mathware(s).com yet, I'd like to check it out myself.

With quantum encryption we'll get better protection, and he'll be relegated to modeling forward pricing curves for driftwood on the Bhutan Lumber Exchange.

[Satadru]

The most sophisticated thing I have used in Java is orb. Even then, I will admit that my experience is limited. I lost all interest in coding circa 1998, because I found it extremely boring. Not that I am doing anything super-exciting now, but it is definitely lot more exciting than coding in C++.

I am very curious what they use Kalman filtering for in analyzing satelite data. We use it in econometrics if we think that some parameters of the observational equation changes over time. There are so many applications of that, ranging from regime shift models in discrete time, to a full-fledged continuous state-space model.

[Dead Dog]

Just a little humor to break the anger of seeing H1-B's driving around in Benz' while 'Mercuns hit the unemployment line.

I've seen this exact thing happen, except it was a volvo 580(?). The woman was 25 years old, 2 years experience, very well paid, mainland Chinese, and completely incompetent (at engineering).

I will never work for another company that states Shareholder Value (not wealth) and creating a "diverse workforce" as their 20 year goal.