Posted on 06/24/2002 5:12:30 PM PDT by WakeUpChristian
U.S. investigating claims Sun layoffs favored foreign workers
Monday, June 24, 2002
Federal authorities are investigating claims that Sun Microsystems Inc. favored U.S.-based foreign workers over American citizens during a recent round of layoffs.
The Justice and Labor departments launched their probes after a complaint filed in April by Guy Santiglia, who lost his Sun engineering job in October along with 3,900 other employees.
Santiglia, 36, said the Unix server giant favored holders of H-1B visas because those engineers may be paid less. The visa program was expanded in 2000 to help fill the ranks of workers during the high-tech boom.
Now, Santiglia and others claim, the program allows companies to hire lower-paid and more pliable workers at the expense of U.S. citizens.
The federal agencies declined to confirm or deny the existence of an investigation. Sun confirmed it has been asked for documents related to Santiglia's claims and is cooperating.
In an e-mail, Sun spokeswoman Diane Carlini said the layoffs "were driven by business needs going forward, employee skill and performance. Foreign national status was not a factor in the selection."
Santiglia, who has a degree in electrical engineering from Montana State University, said he knows of at least three other laid-off Sun employees who have similar claims.
"There's people complaining from all over Sun, from New Hampshire to Colorado, that the H-1Bs did not get laid off from their groups," he said.
The Justice Department usually investigates complaints about the H-1B visa program as it relates to a law that bars discrimination on the basis of citizenship status.
The Labor Department, however, says it has no rules about favoring U.S. citizens during layoffs.
"There's nothing that says that when they get to a point where they need to downsize that H-1Bs go first," a labor official, who asked not to be identified, told the San Jose Mercury News.
On the Net:
Sun Microsystems: www.sun.com
Lucent, Nortel, Compaq, Sun, and many others, but especially those involved in the telecommunications industry, are laying off by the thousands. This is not a case of simply firing a non-productive individual, this is a problem that will affect 1 million US engineers by the end of this year.
He was probably looking for someone who ALREADY had 3 years working on the Y2K bug...
I find the assertion that he couldn't find any Amercian to code in C to be extremely dubious at best. Any software engineer graduating college has coded in C. There are literally millions of American engineers who are coding and/or have coded in C today.
Not at all. You should see me when I DO get "fired up"..
If whatever someone is producing can be procured for a dollar a day, what sense does it make to pay 200 times that?
Why don't we just reintroduce slavery? Wait, we already have, it's called the H-1B program...
Perhaps we should go a step furthur and just pack up some transport ships with workers from Etiopia and Somalia and get them all to work at McDonalds for a burger a day? It'd surely drive the price of a Big Mack down now wouldn't it. At minimum, the shareholders would realize greater profits.
When you go out to shop do you generally pay 200 times the cost of a product?
A person who has taken the time and expended the effort to become proficient in a profession is not a product. Would you pay a "doctor" from Guatamala $10 to remove your appendix, or would you shop for a US surgeon at market rates?
Labor is no different. But, this is the key. No one is forcing you to hire H1-B, other than market forces. If it wasn't optimal to hire them, the industry wouldn't.
Again, you are referring to people as products. With a short sighted thirst for short term gains, companies are eliminating the US workforce of experienced engineers for cheap foreign labor. Do you think we will be in better shape as a nation for this?
Moreover, I don't have any compunction over child labor. I have no problems in employing child sweat-shop labors. The alternative in those countries is far worse.
That's one of the most outrageous things I've ever heard anybody say. Stalin and Mao would be so proud of you..
I am not sure when is the last time you shopped for computer products, but I can guarantee that the price of all computer peripherals have gone down over the years.
Computer peripherals are printers, mice, scanners, etc. In other words, they are hardware. Computers and related peripherals HAVE gone down in price due to improved manufacturing processes. Much like the price of calculators which at one time would cost $100, one with 1000 times the processing power and a host of functions can now be had for a few bucks.
It is hard to gauge the price of a software because I don't think no two softwares are the same.
No bullcrap sherlock.
You are paying for new bells and whistles in different versions.
Not always. For instance MS Word has gone through many iterations, some of which have provided major improvements in capabilities over previous versions.
Having said that, I am sure whatever software you are looking for, you can find it for free from Shareware or somewhere else. The actual coding part has become so cheap that companies will let you try out their product for free.
So you're saying the US military can go find some shareware to put on their missles, ships, and aircraft? Or that health monitoring equipment can just use some crap that a kid posted on the Internet? Or that Microsoft is giving away all of its software for free? Or the phone companies download the software that routes all the calls from some shareware website?
Not only that, but you seem to think that engineers have no bills to pay, don't care if they eat, and live in tents, so they don't charge any money for their services. Yep, you've really got it all figured out.
You cannot say that for cars or health care.
And you obviously can't say it about software either.
On the topic of health care, you are dead wrong. Lower govt control is not the problem. The FDA and other govt agencies has a stranglehold on insurance companies and hospitals. They are the ones who keeps cost and wages high, so that average folks cannot afford them.
More like the lobbyists representing the insurance companies, pharmacutical companies, and the hospitals are the ones keeping the premiums and the costs artificially high. Congress never passes a law that someone hasn't paid them for...
I am glad that the computer industry is not following the same foot steps of unionization and price controls. It is the most free marketplace, and look there is a computer in every household, or anyone who wants one has one.
Again Einstien, a computer is not software. Software RUNS on a computer, but it is NOT a computer. Sheesh, and you're trying to lecture me...
I am glad that the computer industry is not following the same foot steps of unionization and price controls. It is the most free marketplace, and look there is a computer in every household, or anyone who wants one has one.
.. is so hairbrained I couldn't help but to respond furthur. What do you think a person who is out of work will do with a computer when they can't afford to pay the electric bill? Do you think that computer will do a lot of good? I HAVE seen many ads for computers in the classifieds, more than likely placed there by people affected by those policies that YOU support!
And incidently, I haven't seen anyone here advocating price controls. What I am saying is that the present policy of importing foreign workers to displace US workers is insane. This policy was put into effect after the industry made false claims that was a labor shortage in the software engineering industry. What needs to be done is to change this policy back to the way it was prior to the new rules which allowed the market to become flooded with foreign workers. We DO NOT have a shortage of engineers in this country, nor did we when those claims were originally made.
Perhaps you're purposely avoiding the fact that these events are recent, not something that's been going on "for years"...
The simple facts are there, and many people in this country are suffering because of these failed policies. Not only the engineers who are directly affected, but the entire economy is suffering due to the millions of people out of work. Do you think high-tech firms would have laid off thousands upon thousands of engineers if there was actually a "labor shortage" as claimed by industry?
I know the difference between softwares and hardwares. I was a JAVA programmer for a while before I got bored out of my mind. That is a huge aspect about programming. Most Americans find it extremely boring. Foreign workers eat it up, because on average they lack the imagination to do something exciting, like encryption, etc.
Again I would have no problem in getting a ship-load of Somalis to work in McDonalds for a burger a day. Maybe the best among them can even get some fries with that. The clear distinction from slavery is that these people are given a choice. No one is forcing them to work in a sweatshop. If I can contract with them for a burger a day, then it is between me and them. If they want 5 bucks an hour, I will tell them to go back to Somalia. The same thing goes for a surgeon. If a Guatamalan surgeon can do the job, then why not pay him the market wage there. The clear distinction is can he do my triple bypass. If triple cypass was just as easy as flipping burgers, then the price of a surgery would be a hamburger.
People are not products. However, their skill set and what they can do is a product. It is a particular kind of capital, called human capital. You should be paid whatever your value in the marketplace is. If the equilibrium wage for a programmer is whatever a third world worker will do with a broad smile and work 90 hours a week, then let him do it. If an US worker cannot provide the same service, then he should look for something better.
That is price control. What you are saying is the price of labor will be artificially fixed higher by government regulations so US workers can drive their SUVs and live a happy suburban life.
Most computer peripherals are manufactured overseas. I do concede however that not ALL H1Bs are working as software engineers.
It is not the manufacturing aspect of it that saves money, it is how it is built that saves money. The manufacturing already takes place in probably Taiwan or Malaysia, but the brain behind it is probably American.
Although much of the manufacturing IS performed overseas, the manufacturing technologies involved in producing devices such as memory chips and processors have advanced substantially. Automated assembly and tests contribute to savings in time and money. Furthermore, once research and development costs are recovered, products can be sold for less.
That brain has been freed from doing menial jobs which H1B workers have provided.
Again, people working in Taiwan or Malaysia aren't working on a H1B visa.
I know the difference between softwares and hardwares.
For starters, the words software and hardware are not made plural by adding an s to the end.
I was a JAVA programmer for a while before I got bored out of my mind. That is a huge aspect about programming. Most Americans find it extremely boring.
Some aspects of software development ARE boring, just like any other job..
Foreign workers eat it up, because on average they lack the imagination to do something exciting, like encryption, etc.
Like, duh, what do you think encryption is? It is a algorithm implemented in SOFTWARE. In other words, developing encryption algorithms IS software development. You sure you've done development? Why don't you tell me what a constructor is..
Again I would have no problem in getting a ship-load of Somalis to work in McDonalds for a burger a day. Maybe the best among them can even get some fries with that.
I can definitely see you owning slaves if it were still legal. Fortunetely, people with more sense than you (hopefully) are running things..
The clear distinction from slavery is that these people are given a choice. No one is forcing them to work in a sweatshop.
Yep, just like the people from China who built the railroads out west, right?
If I can contract with them for a burger a day, then it is between me and them.
Why don't you go out there and make them an offer?
If they want 5 bucks an hour, I will tell them to go back to Somalia. The same thing goes for a surgeon.
You'd only see a surgeon if he charges less than 5 bucks an hour. Hey, why don't you go find one that does a little brain surgery..
If a Guatamalan surgeon can do the job, then why not pay him the market wage there.
I highly encourage you to do so.
The clear distinction is can he do my triple bypass. If triple cypass was just as easy as flipping burgers, then the price of a surgery would be a hamburger.
I bet you do most of your shopping at K-Mart.
People are not products. However, their skill set and what they can do is a product. It is a particular kind of capital, called human capital.
No, actually the work performed by people is called a service, not a product. A product is a material good that can be inventoried, bought, and sold.
You should be paid whatever your value in the marketplace is.
And that marketplace is artifically manipulated if invaded by foreign workers.
If the equilibrium wage for a programmer is whatever a third world worker will do with a broad smile and work 90 hours a week, then let him do it. If an US worker cannot provide the same service, then he should look for something better.
Same goes for you pal. I'm sure whatever it is you do can easily and willingly be done for a dime a day by someone who only cares if they get a bowl of rice to eat.
No, you have it backwards. Because of the GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS allowing foreign workers to enter this country and displace US workers, the cost of labor (specifically, software engineers), has been artificially manipulated. If the GOVERNMENT had done NOTHING, then these foreign workers would have to apply for citizenship just like everyone else who wants to come live in the US. Thing is, many of them are only here TEMPORARILY. They bank on the fact that what they are payed here is worth MUCH more in their country than it is HERE IN THE US.
As you appear to be a strong supporter of these miserable regulations, I sincerly hope that someday soon you will find yourself out in the street working for a job, only to find that every job in your field is filled by foreign workers getting paid a banana a day.
You miss the point about surgery. Because the surgeon performs an important job, he is paid more. If the surgeon's job is just as mechanical as coding in C, trust me no one would pay him a six figure salary. As such, if a Guatamalan surgeon can do the same job for half the price, with the same success rate as the US surgeon, you would need a brain surgery for paying the US doctor as opposed to the Guatamalan who would do it for half the price.
I would never own slaves, because it involves coercion. If both parties can voluntarily reach a cotnract, then it is not slavery. Your failure to understand that reinforces the need for brain surgery. Again, you should shop around for the best price.
You are also dead wrong about government artificially manipulating the wage. Government cannot do it, because market dicatates that people who code be paid a certain salary. If the US workers are competetive then they can get that market wage. Most US workers will not work 90 hours a week for 50k. Government controls the entry of these foreign workers who will effectively work for cheap. If the government does not permit the entry of these workers, then the price is artificially risen to above the market price. When govt opens up the labor market to more market-like conditions, these inflated wages drop. It is only through govt control of entry into the labor force that keeps wages high. Remember those 40 bucks an hour jobs in the Ford supply line. There is a reason why those jobs arent there any more, because it does not take 40 dollars an hour to tighten a bolt. That is why the Japanese beat us in the automobile market. This is all freshman year economics.
Tell me then, what type of logic gate would be used to mask a key with a random seed, and what type of operator you would use to mask/unmask the key with the data..
Developing encryption algorithm is not developing software. After you have the algorithm, then you can code it.
Ok, heavy encryption alrorithms are admittedly math intensive and are developed by mathematicians. BUT, implementing those algorithms in software then utilizing the encryption algorithms is a science unto itself.
After you code it, then it is a software.
You seem to have a problem with your english. The phrase should be 'then it is software'..
Most computer programmers do not have the mathematical knowledge to come up with encryption algorithms. That is a job for number theorists mostly.
Ok, you are right for once.
You miss the point about surgery. Because the surgeon performs an important job, he is paid more. If the surgeon's job is just as mechanical as coding in C, trust me no one would pay him a six figure salary.
I doubt you've ever coded in C. In fact, your analogy of a surgeon's job not being mechanical is flawed, as a surgeon's job IS mechanical, but whose mechanics requires great SKILL. I've seen C code and C++ code that were actually awesome to read, and I've seen code that looked like somebody's cat went spastic on the keyboard one night after dipping into some nip. It's all a matter of SKILL, the GREATER, the BETTER.
As such, if a Guatamalan surgeon can do the same job for half the price, with the same success rate as the US surgeon, you would need a brain surgery for paying the US doctor as opposed to the Guatamalan who would do it for half the price.
No, I'll leave the surgical procedures for you to explore on your own.
I would never own slaves, because it involves coercion.
Oh c'mon, you're just saying that to be PC. You'd buy some in a heartbeat. Remember, they were simply products sold to the highest bidder when it was legal..
If both parties can voluntarily reach a cotnract, then it is not slavery.
You're examples of how you condone forced child labor and prison slave labor in China speaks for itself.
Your failure to understand that reinforces the need for brain surgery. Again, you should shop around for the best price.
Again, I refer you to your own advice and hope you get some help.
You are also dead wrong about government artificially manipulating the wage.
Is that a veiled threat?
Government cannot do it, because market dicatates that people who code be paid a certain salary.
The market is being artificially manipulated by the recent increase in H1B visas issued by the fraudulent claim that there is currently a shortage in software engineers. That authoration was signed into law, so it does affect the standard wages due to LEGISLATION changing the way people who come into our country are handled. As these claims of a shortages are fraudulent, companies that hire H1Bs over American workers are at risk of facing criminal prosecution.
That would be called ENFORCING THE LAW.
If the US workers are competetive then they can get that market wage.
You obviously haven't read the main article, you know, the subject of this thread. If you have, you've missed the part that explains how a senior engineer who takes courses to stay current wouldn't find a job with that new skill, or how a laid off senior engineer wouldn't be able to find work even if lowering his salary requirements.
Most US workers will not work 90 hours a week for 50k.
Nor should anyone work those hours. You ARE a slave driver aren't you? I sure pity any unfortunate soul who would be obligated to work for you. And your justification of your fondness for this concept is pure crap, as the only reason why these foreigners would work such obscene overtime is that they don't want to get sent home. It is called indentured servitude.
Government controls the entry of these foreign workers who will effectively work for cheap. If the government does not permit the entry of these workers, then the price is artificially risen to above the market price.
You have it backwards again. The action performed by the government is that of ALLOWING them into this country. The United States of America is under NO obligation to ALLOW foreigners entry into this country simply because they WANT to. The entry of foreigers has been and is currently controlled by the Immigration laws. They were modified in response to FRAUDULENT CLAIMS made by industrial lobbyists. The effect is ARTIFICIAL in nature, as it was in response to petitions for NEW LEGISLATION by LOBBYISTS.
When govt opens up the labor market to more market-like conditions, these inflated wages drop.
The market WAS opened up. You're just insisting that the US is under some obligation to deflate wages by inserting a flood of cheap foreign labor that didn't exist in the form that it does today until just several years ago.
It is only through govt control of entry into the labor force that keeps wages high. Remember those 40 bucks an hour jobs in the Ford supply line. There is a reason why those jobs arent there any more, because it does not take 40 dollars an hour to tighten a bolt.
So a software engineer should make less than someone who tightened bolts at Ford? That appears to be what you're suggesting, as $40/hr is approximately $80,000 per year. Many engineers make considerably less than that. H1Bs can be had for around $35 K / year, so that translates to about $17 per hour. Postal workers make about that, and experienced electricians much more than that. So engineers should make less???
That is why the Japanese beat us in the automobile market. This is all freshman year economics.
No, the Japanese produced QUALITY products, whereas US companies focused on PROFIT, usually resulting in inferior quality. Ever hear of Dr. Deming? I doubt you have, although I'd think he WOULD be required reading in an economics course.
You're=your. Also, software is a common noun. Hence, it is perfectly fine to put an article in front of it.
Your examples of how you condone forced child labor and prison slave labor in China speaks for itself.
By the way, how's that answer concerning the gates needed for data encryption doing? What about the constructor question?
I guess you have nothing intelligent to say.
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