Posted on 06/22/2002 6:50:44 AM PDT by aomagrat
Why? Why do they need to be said? And why do it at that time? The ONLY possible explanation is a cruel, vicious streak that hurts the living--can't have any effect on the deceased. This is the sort of crap that alienates any person of good will.
Now you're the one who is being absurd. The actions you specified are crimes by any standards and no one has claimed such immunity for preachers. Consequently, the remainder of your argument is absurd unless you can show that the preacher urged others to also commit a crime. For example, we can reasonably assume from this article that the preacher condemned drunkards during his eulogy. But, there is no evidence that he identified anyone who present as a drunkard and demanded that the congregation take the drunkard out and stone him. In fact, the only claim made so far is that the preacher condemned certain activities as immoral and sinful. I believe he also claimed that certain individuals would suffer damnation after death if they did not change their lives. You've yet to establish that these constitute a crime of any kind.
I just can't stop....
So all this preacher has to do is prove that the deceased is, in fact, in hell.
It's probably a bad idea to get into the specifics of anyone's theology, but since most christians agree that we are all sinners, and since most christians also agree that there are some souls in Heaven, then irrespective of the deceased's alleged iniquities, he may indeed be in Heaven.
Since the preacher has no way of knowing the actual location of this man's soul, your "fact" defense won't work for him.
You are left with a liar pretending to know something that he doesn't, speaking conjecture as if it were fact in such a way as to further traumatize those who are already coping with the death of a loved one.
That is not the issue I was addressing. I never mentioned any legal aspect. Here's an excerpt from a subsequent reply of yours (#178):
No, I understand your point that you think the minister shouldn't have said what he said. I may even agree with you on that. But the point remains that the courts have no place in the pulpit.
You "may"? You haven't already decided? You don't know? You think such may be the right thing to do?
That was the issue I was addressing.
I just can't stop....
So all this preacher has to do is prove that the deceased is, in fact, in hell.
Game. Set. Match.
http://www.addall.com/Browse/Detail/0967573807.html
I agree with Yeti that the preacher was wrong. I don't think we are discussing the merits of going to court over it - we are discussing the fact that such actions are abusive, inconsiderate and mean spirited all in the name of saving other souls.
There are so many people that love to flaunt their goodness and the evilness of others at whatever cost covered by the claim that they are doing God's work. Funny that this effort so many times comes across as evil itself - mean-spirited, disrespectful of the hurt to innocent loved ones and leaving the lasting negative image in the minds of those innocents hurt by it. Yet they take such pride in their work for God and how "good" they themselves are.
I am just pointing out that this same action could have been done so much more effectively.
A preacher can easily provide a gentle service with respect to the loved ones, ignore the judgement calls as he is not the judge designated by God - but merely a preacher providing a funeral service as the dead is buried. God will handle all judgement but God also cares about those innocents listening to that preacher.
With love and caring shown instead of pompous self-righteousness by a minister, with an invitation to any wanting to make themselves right with God against the day they too will face meet their Maker, yet with no evaluation made on the life of the dead other than he was loved by >>>>> and the basics of his life, the family is not assaulted and given negative impressions of preachers - yet are comforted by God and the service as they go out to their lives. They know what the man was - they don't need it smeared in their faces. They just want the comforting that Jesus promised them in "blessed are the mourners for they shall be comforted".
Now - I believe that more are led to God through love than through fear. Why would any want to join with that preacher other than to find some other poor family that they can use as an example to show how "good" they are and how "evil" their loved dead were.
Do you think the funeral attendees like to point fingers at the dead, hurt the mourners so that they feel safer in their own salvation? If so, they are wrong and they are mean-spirited.
I'll grant you that is a clever point. However, it would equally valid to require someone to prove the preacher wrong. Since neither is in fact provable, I doubt any serious court would entertain either argument.
A court would entertain arguments about whether the deceased was a drunkard and fornicator. I don't believe anyone has disputed these claims. If you can establish that the deceased was not one of these then you would have grounds for libel and I will withdraw my objection.
Jesus was offensive. Most people were offended by him. The proof for John the Baptist that Jesus was the Christ was that the blind see, the lame walk and the majority are "offended" by Him (Mat. 11:2-19). As Jesus said, "Blessed is he who is not offended because of Me" (Mat. 11:6; Luke 7:23). In Galilee, Jesus did not plead with his neighbors to understand Him when "they were offended at Him" (Mat. 13:57; Mark 6:3). If unbelievers are offended, so be it (cf. Luke 14:3-4; John 5:8-16). "Shake off the dust from your feet" (Mat. 10:14). But alas, that is no longer a Christian attitude.
Christ’s apostles asked Him, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard [Your] saying?" (Mat. 15:12). What is the accepted Christian response today after an offense is taken? Quick, apologize! Ask for forgiveness! Tell them you are sorry. How did Jesus respond? He said to ignore the complaints of the unbelievers: "Let them alone. They are blind," (Mat. 15:14). Today, many Christians condemn Christ’s attitude as unloving.
Jesus promised his followers, "you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended" (Mat. 24:9-10).
Jesus taught that ‘if they hated Me, they will hate you’" (see John 15:18-19; 17:14; Mat. 10:22; Luke 21:17). Today Christians think if the world hates them, they have failed. The reverse should be true. It is not that a Christian wants to be hated; it is simply an occupational hazard. Jesus is the Rock. Most believers are unaware, however, that Jesus used this metaphor to issue a graphic threat against the unrepentant. For Christ said that on whom that Rock "falls, it will grind him to powder" (Mat. 21:44; Luke 20:18). Even the Father said that the Son is the "rock of offense" (Isa. 8:14; Rom. 9:33; 1 Pet. 2:8). Offending unbelievers is Christlike in the deepest sense.
God utterly forbid drinking blood (Lev. 3:17; 17:14). Israelites, from priests, to Pharisees, to average citizens, were at least superficially obsessed with "keeping the law." Thus when Jesus said whoever "drinks My blood has eternal life," (John 6:54) He was being extremely offensive, and intentionally so. Further, He made no effort whatsoever to clarify Himself. Rather, He let the offense work its ministry. Jesus knew He even offended His own followers. As He said to "His disciples" immediately afterward, "does this offend you?" (John 6:61).
The Bible sometimes ministers through ridicule, humor, sarcasm and even mocking. For example, God mocked the Midianites when He defeated them after sending a nightmare to them that they were being attacked by a loaf of bread (Jud. 7:13-14). Elijah, just prior to executing 450 prophets of Baal, "mocked them" as the Bible says, telling them to yell louder to their god so that Baal could hear their prayers since he was either on a trip, sleeping or in the restroom (Hebrew, "private place," 1 Ki. 18:27; and 2 Ki. 6:8-20).
God, however, does not condemn those who "rebuke the wicked" (see Prov. 24:25).
God mocked Jeroboam, who "stretched out his hand from the altar" and ordered the prophet arrested. "Then his hand, which he stretched out toward him, withered, so that he could not pull it back to himself" (1 Ki. 13:4). God mocked the Philistines when they found Dagon their god "fallen on its face before the ark of the Lord. So they took Dagon and set it in its place again" (1 Sam. 5:3). The next morning they found Dagon toppled again, but this time he had lost his head (1 Sam. 5:4). God mocked the idolaters who cut down a branch, and with half of it they make a god to worship and with the other half, they make a fire to cook lunch (Is. 44:14-17). Another carves an idol of stone and says to it "wake up" (Hab. 2:18-19).
When a harsh word is needed God uses a harsh word. This is true in the Old and New Testaments. Herod beheaded John the Baptist for "rebuking" the king for "all the evils which Herod had done" (Luke 3:19) and for condemning the tetrarch for incestuous adultery (Mat. 14:3-4; Mark 6:17-18; Lev. 18:16; 20:21) with "Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife" (Luke 3:19). Jesus warned of "the leaven of Herod" (Mark 8:15). When notified that "Herod wants to kill You," (Luke 13:31), Christ responded without respect, "Go, tell that fox, ‘I cast out demons’…" (Luke 13:32).
The especially harsh term hypocrite is used in the Gospels twenty-three times. Christ often insulted the scribes, Pharisees and lawyers. He even called the Pharisees blind guides (Mat. 23:16, 24) and sons of hell (Mat. 23:15). Jesus spoke unkind words unacceptable today. He said to Peter "Get behind me, Satan" (Mat. 16:23). He told the Pharisees "You are of your father the devil" (John 8:44), and made a whip and cleared "thieves" from the temple (Mat. 21:12-13; Mark 11:15-17; Luke 19:45-46; John 2:14:15).
Gentiles (as symbols of the godless) and sodomites are called "dogs" in the Bible (Mat. 7:6; 15:26; Deut. 23:17-18; Ps. 22:16; 59:5-6; Phil. 3:2; Rev. 22:15). And Jesus was harsh (not only to the Pharisees, as some believers wrongly assume but) to all the unrepentant (see His use of "hypocrite"). Jesus instructs Christians to not "cast your pearls before swine" (Mat. 7:6). Yet the silly dilemma now is, "Who could Christ possibly have meant by that, for we are too loving, tolerant, polite and respectful to refer to any human being by that mean-spirited term."
In the King James Version, the seductive women among the people of God are worse than "whores" (Ezek. 16:33). That crude term appears in the Bible dozens of times. The men who use those women are "whoremongers" (1 Tim. 1:10; Heb. 13:4; Rev. 21:8; 22:15), which is the most raw term in the English language to describe promiscuous men. God describes other sinners in terms of filthy excrement (Isa. 64:6) and even worse (2 Ki. 18:27; Isa. 36:12). Sinners truly are repulsive, regardless of how men may try to sanitize them.
The Bible does not say, "Hate the sin, love the sinner." It says, "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he" (Prov. 23:7). And that God hates "all workers of iniquity" (Ps 5:5). "The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man" (Ps 5:6). Also "the wicked and the one who loves violence [God] hates." (Ps 11:5). Further, "The face of the Lord is against those who do evil" (Ps 34:16). God "loves righteousness and hate[s] wickedness (Ps. 45:7).
There are six things "the Lord hates," including "a heart that devises wicked plans… a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren" (Prov. 6:16-19). And God reminds us "All their wickedness is in Gilgal, for there I hated them. Because of the evil of their deeds I will drive them from My house; I will love them no more" (Ho 9:13). As Moses wrote of God, "if you do not obey Me... My soul shall abhor you" (Lev. 26:27-30).
God uses different methods to communicate the Gospel to people at different depths of depravity. At times, a Christian can pray with an unbeliever. At other times, a believer might ridicule the unrepentant in hopes of waking him up. Painful communication though is in no way reserved just for non-Christians.
Paul uses dripping sarcasm telling the Corinthians that they do not need his counsel because they are full, rich, wise, strong and distinguished. They are even like kings, and all that without Paul’s help (1 Cor. 4:8, 10). Sarcasm stigmatizes destructive behavior and prods people toward righteousness (1 Cor. 4:14). Paul also fell short of today’s compassionate Christianity when he wrote that the government should minister terror, wrath and vengeance against the evildoer and that the sword should be used against them (Rom. 13:3-4). The Apostle also erred by today’s standards calling unbelievers fools (Rom. 1:22) and the Galatians fools (Gal. 3:1, 3). Incidentally, Jesus also called men fools (Mat. 23:17, 19; 25:2-8; Luke 11:40; 12:20) when appropriate but never "without a cause" (Mat. 5:22) according to His teaching. As King David wrote, "The fool has said in his heart, ‘There is no God.’" (Ps. 53:1). Thus, atheists are fools and it is cruel to withhold this knowledge from them.
Christians enjoy quoting, "No weapon formed against you shall prosper." However many shudder at the rest of the verse. For thus says the Lord, "Every tongue which rises against you in judgment you shall condemn" (Isa. 54:17). Jesus taught that human beings will condemn the wicked. "The men of Nineveh will rise in the judgment with this generation and condemn it" (Mat. 12:41). Jesus said, "For God so loved the world." Then two verses later He added, "but he who does not believe is condemned already" (John 3:18). By today’s Christian standard, no unbeliever would know that he is condemned, because most believers will not communicate this vital truth. John 3:16 is nice. John;3:18 is not nice.
Jesus was rude. He was asked a question that goes to the very heart of His ministry. "Who gave you this authority?" (Mat. 21:23). Within the answer to that question lies eternal life, yet Christ was not inclined to answer them. Rather, He asked them a question, which they failed to answer (Mat. 21:24-27). Therefore He said to them that neither would He answer their question (Mat. 21:27; see also Luke 22:67 and John 12:34-36).
When people misunderstood Jesus He often made no effort to explain Himself. Quite to the contrary, He often purposely let His hearers misconstrue His words (John 2:18-22). Jesus let people walk away in unbelief without running after them. The Bible does not record Him as saying, "I’m sorry, did you misunderstand me?" He is the "stumbling block," and if men wanted to stumble, He let them. For those who want to hang themselves, He invites them (Rev. 22:11). Jesus made the rope available. He is that rope (Rom. 9:33).
Jesus was a man, not a girl. Christianity today has been emasculated. Men and women are different and they communicate differently. Women are softer and nicer than men, and thank God that they are. However, men are not supposed to be women. Today, Christian ministers are expected to behave like women. That foolishness is a death sentence for many unbelievers. Strength, confidence, conviction and tough love appeal to those who are searching. Thus Jesus is a beacon to real seekers. But for those wanting to get lost, Christ is like a street sign that has been reversed by a troublemaker.
Today we are way nicer than God. It is tragic. This spiritual plateau that the Church has reached conveniently reduces the chances for confrontation. Nice people rarely rebuke, judge, confront, accuse or condemn. Nice people have less stress. It seems the only ones that Christians are quick to judge and condemn are fellow believers who judge and condemn the wicked. Go figure.
Obviously, you are religious persons. Do you really want a preachers remarks made in an official capacity to be subject to lawsuits soley on the grounds that someone's feelings are hurt? Are you aware that laws are already on the books in Canada and Sweden prohibing preachers from preaching certain sections of the bible on the grounds that it is hate speech?
Ok, try post 189 and see if I did better...
And I have been trying to tell you - I am not discussing the legal portion of this article but the abusiveness and disrespect of this man using his position as a minister to get up and assault the mourners of the dead. A minister knows the effects of his words and many love that power. Many abuse that power either because of an avid effort to serve their God regardless of who they trample on the way or by ignorance of the true effect of their actions.
I would think that a minister sincerely seeking to do his job in participating at a service for the dead would do so in a manner that takes into consideration the sensabilities of the mourners, the facts of the circumstances and the lasting effect of his words. He should be versed enough to choose those words with care without lying but also respective of the grieving loved ones. If he cannot do so, he should refuse the request and state why in private.
Now, I am not interested in discussing the legal aspects of this situation. If this is indicative of how this minister operates, there will be many opportunities for legal questions.
Ahhh... he has others to serve first right... People's feelings come first, not God... See post 189
James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
You gotta be pretty twisted to think that James means for you to go visit the fatherless and widowed in their affliction and tell them their departed loved one is being tormented unceasingly in hell. Yeah, that ought to bring them to a love of God, eh?
Their loved one may be in hell, but you don't know for sure, and have no way of knowing for sure, and your job is to offer what comfort you can, FOR LOVE'S SAKE. "GOD IS LOVE," remember? And you are "ambassadors for Christ," RIGHT? All you that name His name, you are His representatives, RIGHT? What saith the scriptures?
Romans 12:15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
That is empathy, compassion; that is LOVE, friends. Tormenting the afflicted about the eternal disposition of a loved one (WHICH YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW FOR SURE) is SADISM masquerading behind a perverted definition of "Christian duty".
Romans 13: 8-10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Since the commandment is to "love thy neighbour as thyself," and you have no compunction against monstrous assault of the grief-stricken in their affliction, rather than words of, at the least, the graciousness of admitting not knowing for sure the disposition of their lost loved one, one can only conclude that such are consumed in their own self-hate and would treat others no better than they treat themselves. Which of course is in clear violation of the commandment.
Colossians 4: 5-6 Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time.Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.
Of course you know who "them that are without" are, don't you? Unbelievers. What a remarkable thing for Paul to say, don't you think, that your speech should ALWAYS be "with grace," and that one should "walk in WISDOM" before them?
How WISE is it to walk into a room full of grieving, suffering unbelievers who have called on you in their time of AFFLICTION, and laying "your loved one is burning in HELL" on them? How much GRACE is there in that?
There's a TIME and a PLACE, and it only takes a little wisdom and a little grace to see that that is NOT the time, nor the place. At the least, the courtesy can be granted by the preacher of saying, "I do not know." Then he can add a Gospel message, persented with love and compassion, very much considering the grieving, suffering and affliction already present. DEMONSTRATING love is itself a tremendous witness of the love of God. Demonstrating SADISM is just twisted, and does no service to the cause of Christ.
And notice this, when Paul is giving the qualifications of a bishop -- a pastor, look what he says:
1 Timothy 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
It goes without saying that a preacher who behaves like that guy at a funeral for a SUPPOSED unbeliever (remember HE DOES NOT KNOW FOR SURE) is NOT going to have a "good report" of them which are without
All that said, let's switch gears and talk about the marketplace here. I know of one hellfire and damnation fundie preacher who regularly peeled the hide off his congregation (and probably quite a few others outside the congregation). He was relentless, preaching little about the grace and forgiveness of God through Jesus Christ, and much about condemnation and demands and law and works sin and how displeased God continually is with them (so he taught) so they better walk the aisle every week and get things straightened out with God, lest they be smitten down for whatever. Quick to find fault and condemn, he found himself "disinvited" from church after church.
He finally landed in a hardshell Appalachian church, where he stayed for a number of years, but even they showed him the door after a while.
Now he is no doubt, to this day, adamant about "preaching the word," unvarnished, uncompromised, as he sees it, not sparing the flock, "telling it like it is," and all such. But he can't get a job preaching anymore. Not a revival, nothing. Even at Bible-believing, independant, fundamental, etc., etc. churches.
The "job market" in the preaching biz works by invitation.
So the point is, though the people at that particular funeral had their service for their loved one pretty much torpedoed by that guy, others will not have to. He just won't get the invitations. The "preacher marketplace" will take care of it. He just won't have a job.
I guess he takes that to mean after he himself gets through with them and God takes over.
Such power to take the knowledge of God's word and chose to hit people on the head with it rather than to gently lead them to know God's purpose in their lives and show His love.
Yes, lets switch and talk about the the "Marketplace". I know there is churches that hire "so called" homosexual "preachers". I believe they are quite happy and smug with their selection. Whether or not, the word is being taught as it was intended is another matter. There is always that part of the population that will shop around until they find someone to coddle them. Doctors that tell it like it is are often dropped, same way with preachers.
Lets look at Jamie Ragle (www.JamieRagle.org), He is a "fundie" preacher (Hell fire and all). He is booked for two years in advance (our church booked him, we know). After listening to him preach, I can honestly say, it was a pleasure to hear a preacher that cared less about kissing butt, and was on fire for Jesus (our preacher is great, but Regal is fantastic). People tire of sugar coated sweet nothings. Do you honestly think the lost don't know the difference. They hunger for the power/glory/love/forgiveness and JUSTICE. Why some preachers sugar coat the Justice is beyond me.
You quote James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
To keep Himself Unspotted from the world. Does that mean do as the world wants or as God would want? Preaching anything out of the Bible should not offend anyone that believes? Who was offended? Unbelivers? Tough....(see post 189). Jesus offended many on numerous occasions.
You gotta be pretty twisted to think that James means for you to go visit the fatherless and widowed in their affliction and tell them their departed loved one is being tormented unceasingly in hell.
You got to be pretty twisted to believe that a person that denys Jesus to the end is going to Heaven.(Yes we do not know the details in this case, He could of been shot in the bed of another woman or He could of died in his sleep at church service? We just don't know, but the later is doubtful don't you think). But to say that someone is in heaven when we know that they probable are not (have not publically professed Jesus at any time) is pretty lame. To hear someone only mention God in a swear, is not the best sign of a person "born again". Nothing a preacher says at one's funeral changes anything. It does not alter that persons direction to Heaven or Hell. It is said and done by that time.
Their loved one may be in hell, but you don't know for sure, and have no way of knowing for sure, and your job is to offer what comfort you can, FOR LOVE'S SAKE. "GOD IS LOVE," remember? And you are "ambassadors for Christ," RIGHT? All you that name His name, you are His representatives, RIGHT? What saith the scriptures?
Romans 12:15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep. That is empathy, compassion; that is LOVE, friends. Tormenting the afflicted about the eternal disposition of a loved one (WHICH YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW FOR SURE) is SADISM masquerading behind a perverted definition of "Christian duty". Romans 13: 8-10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Since the commandment is to "love thy neighbour as thyself," and you have no compunction against monstrous assault of the grief-stricken in their affliction, rather than words of, at the least, the graciousness of admitting not knowing for sure the disposition of their lost loved one, one can only conclude that such are consumed in their own self-hate and would treat others no better than they treat themselves. Which of course is in clear violation of the commandment.
It seems to me that you are having a problem with "Judge Not". I suggest you learn "Judge Rightly" as an alternative.
An absurd question has stymied the Church. Should Christians judge?
Of course believers should judge. To not judge is to be indecent, not to mention inhuman. The only kingdom in which there is no judging is the plant kingdom. For of living things, vegetables do not judge. In the animal kingdom, though, judgment is a must, and members of the Kingdom of God must do the most judging.
Jesus repeatedly taught men to judge rightly, insisting they "judge with righteous judgment" (John 7:24) and He praised a man who "rightly judged" (Luke 7:43). Paul shamed the Corinthian Christians because there was no one among them willing to "judge the smallest matters" (1 Cor. 6:2). As the Apostle wrote, "He who is spiritual judges all things" for "we have the mind of Christ" (1Cor. 2:15-16).
The notion that judgment is wrong is a ludicrous one. Should child-molesters escape condemnation? Should rapists be free from criticism? Should society refrain from judging those arrested for murder? Should we call evil good? Or would that be a judgment too?
"Judge not" is the prayer of those who want to hide light under a basket. The cliché describes salt which has lost its flavor, which no longer seasons or preserves. Those seduced by this terrible lie are taken out of the game. As spectators on the sidelines, they only watch the spiritual battle. But they are in a comfort zone. Apathy is the craving. "Judge not" is the mantra for shirking responsibility.
Borrowing characters from C. S. Lewis, imagine this dialogue between a junior demon named Wormwood and his wicked uncle Screwtape. This fiendish exchange could have occurred a century ago.
Wormwood: Believers have so many weapons at their disposal. It is difficult to neutralize them. It takes a huge effort just to slow the work of a single Christian.
Screwtape: Your one-on-one approach is inefficient. This is the age of Madison Avenue and mass marketing. If you can undermine their whole group at once, then you’ve accomplished something.
Wormwood: Unfortunately, I’m not highly productive. In the time it takes me to frustrate one believer, I could be tempting a dozen heathens.
Screwtape: Don’t lose heart, Wormwood. We are implementing a plan to impair the whole Church with a single ploy.
Wormwood: I don’t see how that will be possible. The Christians that I’ve seen are dedicated to warning others about hell. It’s all I can do just to get one of them distracted for a short time.
Screwtape: We are going to use their Leader’s own words.
Wormwood: No! Please don’t. Don’t even joke about using His words. I can’t take it.
Screwtape: If you’re ever going to grow up to be an effective demon, you’re going to have to learn to use the Enemy’s words against Him.
Wormwood: It just seems so dangerous. Which words are you going to use?
Screwtape: "Judge not!"
Wormwood: I don’t understand why He would tell them not to judge. That’s confusing. He commanded His followers to rebuke, admonish and judge hundreds of times in His Book. And that’s what they’re out there doing. And I might add, it’s causing me no end of grief.
Screwtape: When their Leader said those words, He was speaking to hypocrites. "Judge not… you hypocrite," as He said later in the same paragraph.
Wormwood: Yeah, but how are we going to use "Judge not" to neutralize the whole Church?
Screwtape: We are going to get them to ignore the fact that He was talking to hypocrites. He said that hypocrites should not judge, at least not until they stop doing the wrong deed themselves. But we are going to make them think that none of them should judge.
Wormwood: That’s brilliant… if you can pull it off, that is. I mean, if we can get them to stop judging, then they won’t rebuke the wicked. And they won’t be able to admonish those who are sexually immoral.
Screwtape: It is even more brilliant than you realize. If we can seduce Christians into following the instructions for hypocrites, we will turn them into hypocrites. It’s like government workers who follow foolish rules so precisely they are transformed from human beings into bureaucrats; drones who mindlessly dispense red tape regardless of the misfortune they cause. The slave who willingly obeys his master, begins to conform to the master. If believers willingly submit to an instruction for hypocrites, they will conform to hypocrisy. Eventually, with a little evil luck, we might stop them from confronting unbelievers altogether because, as you know Wormwood, to confront requires judging. And if they don’t judge unbelievers, they are hypocrites, professing the Gospel but denying its power.
Wormwood: Ha, ha. I’m excited. When do we start?
Screwtape: Everything is underway already. Just do your part.
Wormwood: And that is…?
Screwtape: Make sure your targets read as little of the Book as possible. Don’t get too worried if they stick to their favorite twenty cliché verses. But make sure they remain ignorant of most of the Word.
Wormwood: Master, you are brilliant.
Screwtape: You can call me Master if you want, but don’t let the boss hear you.
A lie paralyzed the Church. To abhor evil, someone must first judge evil. God instructs men against "hypocrisy" commanding them to "abhor what is evil" (Rom. 12:9). Thus, unable to judge, and unaccustomed to abhorrence, Christians en masse become hypocrites when they obey the Hypocrites Golden Rule. For "judge not" (Mat. 7:1-5) is simply a hypocrites application of do unto others as you would have them do unto you (Mat. 7:12). "For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged" (Mat. 7:2). Judge others as you would have them do unto you inverted is Judge not if you do not want to be judged. Therefore the hypocrite does not judge. As Jesus said, "Judge not… you hypocrite" (Mat. 7:1, 5 KJV; Ezek. 16:52).
Christ kept this theme throughout His ministry. "Hypocrites," Jesus said, "why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right?" (Luke 12:56-57). Still, His own followers have mostly ignored the Lord’s harsh rebuke: "Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother’s eye" (Mat. 7:5). "Judge Not" is the Hypocritical Oath.
"Judge Not" is hypocrite haven. He who lives in a glass house should not throw stones. Such Christians, though, should relocate. Move into "the temple of the great God, which is being built with heavy stones" (Ezra 5:8).
Christians live in the "building" for which Christ is "the chief corner stone" (Eph. 2:20). And if that Stone falls on someone it "will grind him to powder" (Mat. 21:44; Luke 20:18; cf. Ex. 32:20). It is better to be judged by a Christian than crushed by Christ.
Scripture deals with topics which range from simple to advanced truth. There is the milk which is for babes in Christ, but the meat is for men of God. The question of whether or not Christians should judge is milk. It is preschool. The newest believer discipled with any of a hundred passages would immediately understand that he must judge. Judging others is fundamental. It is not a difficult concept and should in no way be controversial.
"Everyone who partakes only in milk is unskilled in the Word of righteousness, for he is a babe" (Heb. 5:13). The Church today, however, has trouble even with milk.
Extreme ignorance of the Bible has crippled the Church. And that crippling is obvious in virtually every denomination, and in almost all local fellowships. What is the percentage of Christians who have succumbed to the "Judge not" deception? Is there even one percent of believers who have not fallen for that diversion? Surely it seems that at least 99 out of 100 are guilty of either not rebuking someone for misquoting Jesus, or of repeating the mindless "Judge not" themselves. Believers need to turn from this sin and ask God for wisdom to keep from being so easily deceived again.
Curse God and die!
Is that good advice? Word for word, it is in the Bible. Job’s wife counsels her husband to "Curse God and die" (Job 2:7). Many verses, if ripped out of context, can ruin lives. Judas "went and hanged himself" (Mat. 27:5) and as Jesus said "Go and do likewise" (Luke 10:37). The believer who lacks a hunger for God’s word is susceptible to the most absurd dangers.
A letter to the Rocky Mountain News in October 1996 about a murderer who killed two priests expressed a typical judge-not sentiment. The writer advocated incarceration and opposed execution because even the murderer is made "in the image of God" and it would be "wrong to put the image of God to death." The ‘hypocrite’ (used technically) who wrote the letter should have admitted a similar incongruity in putting the image of God in jail. But alas, muddled thinking never gets that far.
Are members of the Body of Christ today less capable than Israel whom God commanded to "judge righteously" (Deut. 1:16-17; Lev. 19:15)? Moses appointed the head of one out of every ten households as a judge (Ex. 18:25; Deut. 1:15). Should Christians look down upon the entire book of Judges? Should America eliminate all judges, or should just the Christian judges resign? Should believers ignore Paul’s admonition? For he wrote:
"Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren?" (1Cor. 6:2-5).
Notice that Christians "will judge the world!" (1 Cor. 6:2). For Paul said, "if the world will be judged by you…" God is the Judge of all the world who will delegate that judgment to His people. Even spirit beings will submit to believers: "Do you not know that we shall judge angels?" Then and now, believers should "judge... according to My judgments" (Ezek. 44:24) as God said. The Almighty commits judgment into the hands of His obedient servants (Rev. 20:4, 1 Tim. 5:24). This teaching is ancient for as Enoch, the seventh from Adam, said, "the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints to execute judgment on all" (Jude 14-15).
Jesus too said, "The men of Nineveh will rise in the judgment with this generation and condemn it..." (Mat. 12:41). And as Solomon wrote, "jealously is a husband's fury; therefore, he will not spare [the adulterer] in the day of vengeance. He will accept no recompense nor will he be appeased..." (Prov. 6:34-35). God gives the responsibility for vengeance, condemnation and judgment to His servants for "every tongue which rises against you in judgment you shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord…" (Isa. 54:17).
Today, many believers are effectively saying, "Lord, thanks but no thanks. I’ll pass on that judgment stuff." But Paul responds, "Start judging now, because you will need the practice" (1Cor. 6:2-5). Remember, "he who is spiritual judges all things. For... we have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor. 2:15-16). And God will reward those who judge, and do the hard work: "Those who rebuke the wicked will have delight, and a good blessing will come upon them." (Prov. 24:25).
Jesus said, "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment" (John 7:24). Like Don Quixote tilting at windmills, though, Christians battle an enemy that means them no harm, their inclination to judge.
Hopefully the Church will see Judge Not headed for retirement replaced with Judge Rightly.
How WISE is it to walk into a room full of grieving, suffering unbelievers who have called on you in their time of AFFLICTION, and laying "your loved one is burning in HELL" on them? How much GRACE is there in that?
Your grace could have them burning in the same place. The preacher at this time felt it was right to say what he said. Grace is showing them the light, not distorting it to cover the unbeliver. The person who is the unbeliever puts their family in this situation, not the preacher. The sadness an unrepentive person puts on their family is awful. The thoughts of their loved one burning is awful indeed, but God gives each and everyone of us multiple chances. He reaches out to us, seeks us, and loves us but it is us who run away from Him. The sidness in this whole story rest solely on one thing. The unrepentive person (yes he could of in his last breath asked forgiveness, but usually they deny to the end) is the story here. The lost has caused their grief, not the preacher. Whether the preacher mentioned this or not, they forever (while alive) will always hurt because in their hearts they know where this man is. There is a price for denying Jesus and we both know what it is. Lying about it does not help those here.
The thought that someone would wait to the last second to ask forgiviness for their sins due to love is very remote. One usually would make a decision for Jesus in the last second due to fear of Hell. They know it is real and becoming realer by the minute/second. If they believed so much in wanting Jesus's love they would of asked sooner, they want His forgiveness based on His (His Father's) love for us. One assumes they know there is Justice. I personally called on Jesus to forgive me because I knew I was going to HELL. I knew the path I was walking lead nowhere cool. I wanted some of that cleansing blood to cover my sins cause I knew how ugly they were. I cry at the thought of someone going to Hell, it breaks my heart. I try to witness to those who are searching, I try not to deny Christ and hide Him. I try to live my life so He shows through me, but sometimes it hurts to see how TV and Movies distort Him. I am not a preacher, it is not my calling, but I think we are all to share His love with others. But hiding God's Justice is not fair.
Forgive the many typos. I was pressed for time.
Keep FReeping
Low OiL
: )
2 Samuel 22: 26-27 With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful, and with the upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright.
With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself unsavoury.Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
Proverbs 11:17 The merciful man doeth good to his own soul: but he that is cruel troubleth his own flesh.
Matthew 18: 23-34 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
There is a time for brutal forthrightness. God grant the wisdom and discernment to know the time. A funeral, in front of grieving mourners, a shocked and troubled family, is not the time. It's just good sense, in addition to being an expression of compassion and love.
Want proof? They (the people that preacher assaulted like that) did not repent, they didn't appreciate the words, they attacked the guy. WHAT ELSE COULD HE EXPECT? IT WAS NOT THE TIME OR THE PLACE. What more proof do you want?
Stop attempting to use scripture to paint a picture of this guy being some sort of bold apostolic sufferer or "soldier of the faith" or Christlike martyr. That's absurd. Scripture records NO apostle EVER disrupting an unbeliever's funeral or troubling a grieving family, widow or child in such a way. And NO scripture references show Jesus conducting Himself in such a way at a FUNERAL. THERE ARE NO SUCH REFERENCES.
You know what Jesus did at the one HE ATTENDED? You OUGHT to know -- it's the shortest verse in the Bible, only two words, and you well ought to be familiar with it and have memorized it"
John 11:35 Jesus wept.
According to your point of view, what an opportunity to talk about death and hell and the condemnation and hellfire awaiting unbelievers! BUT JESUS DID NOT (remember John 3:17 by any chance?). "Hell" doesn't even appear in the whole chapter, not once! The lesson Jesus gave was about resurrection, and LIFE. It was a message of glorious and wonderful HOPE, not condemnation or despair.
Cruelty and sadism, rationalized under some fancied scriptural mandate, is a choice. If that is your choice, as I wrote another, consider staying away from children. For their sake and yours.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.